@Flow The easiest way of saving cost is by cutting corners / not implementing all features. Locally management thermostat sounds boring opposite to ‘smart’ and ‘cloud based’
All those 'modern' subscription based services or cloud based systems have one major flaw. If you pull the plug they became a piece of junk. It's only a matter of time until something happens. Whether they use AWS, Microsoft Azure or Google Cloud it doesn’t matter.
All you will get is "please know that our team is aware and monitoring the situation and hope to get the app back online soon. Please use a blanket instead" ;-)
Thanks @rafm5 but I don’t agree this is something we should accept. Nor should it be an inevitable feature of smart services.
First and foremost, I expect reliability from my home heating system.. I can’t be alone here?
As mentioned above, Hive (UK market leader and Tado competitor) seem to have recognised this, I quote: “Hive Active Heating - Your heating will continue to work. Until your broadband connection is restored you can control your heating manually from your thermostat. If your heating is in schedule mode it will continue to run to the schedule that you have set”.
I don’t want to immediately jump ship here (especially after the recent expenditure of a full Tado home system), but to your point - sadly, I am starting to see where Tado’s priorities lay.
In the last week, I have once again woken TWICE to a disabled Tado. This has not been the case for many months, but the outages appear to have resumed. All three indicator lights were ON and stable on the bridge, but the wireless receiver was flashing (two LEDs, IIRC). No remote access on the app. A disconnect and reconnect of power from the bridge fixed it. It's my assumption (right or wrong) that the bridge firmware (92.1) has updated recently and this version is less stable than its predecessor.
FWIW, my router is programmed to briefly interrupt the internet connection at around 3am daily. My guess is that my Tado bridge is failing to reconnect randomly after this (but doesn't know it - given its status lights show all to be well).
I'm considering putting a timer on the bridge power plug to restart it daily - after the router has done its thing.
''my router is programmed to briefly interrupt the internet connection at around 3am daily''
Is it a bug or a feature? what's the benefit?
It's a feature, configurable. It purports to improve long-term connection stability.
Not certain you will get the fastest synch speed though...
Absolutely agree with others here that the Tado system's vulnerability to loss of internet is a major flaw, other systems can indeed run a basic schedule. It is possible to turn on the boiler and pump manually via the wireless receiver, however, as detailed here:
There's no auto control of the TRVs of course and the boiler will only switch on and off in response to its own thermostat.
To those considering a switch to Hive TRVs (some comments above) I would exercise great caution, have a look at:
I sent my Hive TRVs back for refund.
NB, one clever idea I came across somewhere else in the Tado forum was to wire the old manual heating programmer in parallel with the Tado Wireless Controller, to be energised at times of internet outage. Whilst this is very "belt and braces" I'm considering doing it myself . . .
While I encourage this conversation to continue, please all be aware that one of the major difficulties of the tado system vs many cheap wifi smart home systems is the big difference:
Battery powered / mains powered
If you have a mains powered device, power consumption does not matter and you can choose very different chipsets/communication chips.
That is why it is relatively easy to make a cheap smart bulb etc..
For us, with Smart Radiator Thermostats being one of the main products, it is not feasible to have a mains powered device because the vast majority of people do not have a mains outlet directly next to their radiator valves.
Just something to keep in mind while continuing this discussion.
That is a fair point @Jurian However, all tado installations require a hub, which is mains powered. I think the expectation is for increased intelligence / autonomy from the hub rather than pushing this all the way down to the smart radiator thermostats. Such a solution (which seems like the only practical one) would not affect power consumption on the thermostats at all, right?
I for one would be more than willing to pay some money for a more powerful and functional hub (as an option) if it brought with it benefits such as ability to tolerate internet outages and such like.
@johnbur : I believe @Jurian is replying to comments such as those by @Flow 's e.g. "extremely budget’ smart lightbulb [...] stick to any set schedule if you kill the internet".
I think everyone including Tado are pretty sure that this issue could be resolved by Tado developing a new bridge, but as it's hardware, I'm not expecting any news from Tado until it's been officially announced, and by things @Jurian has said in the past, it doesn't sound like this will happen until a whole new Tado V4 (at least) is developed.
Yes, I'd be happy to pay a little for a new version of the hub/bridge, but only if it is 100% backwards compatible with my house full of other tado gear. I can't afford to replace all of that as well (well, I could afford it at a stretch but I shouldn't have to).
I'm going to jump onto this thread with a few comments:
None of the big names (Hive, Nest, Tado, Wiser) have a full-featured product that is really polished right now, each has drawbacks and shortcomings and you pay your money and live with your choices. I've researched extensively but ultimately stayed with Tado and moved sideways to deal with the things I have the biggest issue with.
My current home had a brand new CH/HW installation as part of some significant renovation work just over a year ago. Previously heated by electric storage heaters, we had to run in mains gas (there was no gas at all at the property), install a boiler, took out floors, walls and ceilings to install new pipework and radiators and insulated it all. I purchased Hive at the outset and installed it all as part of the first time commission of the whole system. What a shocking pile of expensive rubbish that is. SRVs that don't activate (whilst claiming they have). Connectivity drop-outs, and a user community with grievances that make most the complaints here look tame. British Gas truly don't care, they ignore the community and their own support path. If anyone wants Hive, I have £1000 of controllers, thermostats and SRVs in a box in my garage you can have for free if you collect them yourself. I ripped it out and replaced it all with Tado exactly a year ago during "Black Week".
My Tado install was no cheaper - 13 SRVs, 10 wireless stats and the CH+HW starter kit in a sprawling house with WiFi challenges. My Tado install is, however, totally stable (no device dropouts between SRVs, thermostats and controller) and generally stable uplink to the cloud for app management and feedback (despite some of BT's best efforts).
Maybe I'm just a little luckier than some of you for that, maybe it's something else. There is a LOT of WiFi tech in this house, but for what's it's worth, I spent some considerable effort getting rid of WiFi APs, reducing the noise across the 2.4Ghz bands by moving away from meshed systems and booster/repeater devices and adopting TP-Link's Omada managed APs and some slightly smarter switchgear - Each AP can hold multiple SSIDs, has a stronger gain than most domestic devices and can present all SSIDs on different VLANs but the same 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz channel. Less congestion, better performance, more wireless stability. The SSID that I use for most IoT doesn't offer on 5Ghz at all, reducing some of the pairing and other problems of dual-band home set ups.
Hot water is an area of frustration for me with Tado. @Jurian has posted several times around the uniqueness of the UK market - I understand what he is saying but don't entirely agree. I have used an alternative approach to hot water and now my Tado HW schedule is a solid OFF, in favour of handing off the control to some super cheap devices that do a brilliant job. The thread detailing my approach and thoughts is here:
My other main bugbear is the 1990s digital programmer approach to scheduling - it's time for a proper revolution in functionality and thinking. My thoughts on this topic are on this thread:
My final comment is an observation on the people using forums like these with all the big manufacturers. We are the power users, we are pushing the product and expecting changes because it would suit us, but we are the minority in the customer base. Most people do as the installation manual tells them, then they use it with most of the default settings and they find it behaves within the parameters they expected when they made the purchase. However much it frustrates at times, and however easy some of the changes seem, we are a vocal few, not the silent majority.
Have a great day people !
@XKRMonkey thanks for the idea around water, I can see how that adds resiliency. Although of course i’d love to keep everything in the Tado app & ecosystem, especially as I am in the process of moving my Tado system to an eBus standard to enable boiler modulation.
To your point, I too have connectivity challenges at home (with various mesh Wi-Fi and powerline kits in situ), but I am thrilled the radio standard Tado runs across works well and keeps everything connected. I also think the app is well designed and generally the system works brilliantly (a big plus from me).
Which is why this problem about a lack of backup schedules is such a sore point - simply; it’s the one thing our old timers did well and hence something most people take for granted in my opinion. I did, which is why I am still surprised the feature was overlooked by Tado’s designers.
Amazing how Tado moderators keeps deleting my comments. What was it this time? The fact that there is no mention of a requirement for a stable internet connection anywhere on the website, or in pre-sales literature?
This is something that @Jurian him/herself mentions in this very thread; “…Good feedback about not mentioning the requirement of a stable internet connection. I think it was there on a previous version of the tado website but it might not have been ported to the new one. I will forward this to our marketing team…”
@Flow I agree to a point, but like so many products that are conceived in the cloud, the developers have never had to design and test something manually using traditional software development practices, they put their fingers on a keyboard and make something look ok, then start poking it around to add features or fix things.
In the end you have to be more pragmatic as a (power) consumer. "Why would you want to know how hot your water store is ? You never have before!" "For the last 60+ years, a tank thermostat that cuts the mains supply to the tank when it gets to a certain temperature has been good enough, why are you asking for change?"
Simply, [paraphrasing my mother] "because I do!" because maybe that leads me to better savings, using solar powered water heating or choosing which tank to heat based on time of day and expected routine/unexpected changes to that routine. Maybe because you're selling this as a green technology, when you're really creating a very snazzy looking, very expensive digital timer for my hot water.
In all honesty, not a single user needs to buy CH+HW. Leave the old drayton digital programmer on the tank and save the money, the only thing you can't then do is open the app during an ON phase and actually see a big ON tile for Hot Water. Maybe you can't hit the "*naughtyword* that shower's cold" button on your smartphone and you need to walk a few paces for that boost button on the white plastic Drayton programmer, but if you're not home you won't know it's cold anyways. You see - no design, no straw-man testing, just excited "Look how cool it is when I can turn the water heating on from my phone wherever I am!". Worthless feature.
My Sonoff replacement cost me £18 per tank (and right now it's black Friday week people!). It provides me with real data and a flexible way to program behaviours based on that data - in the EWELink app or by adding IFTTT superpowers. Best £18 ever.
Tado are not alone in this, all the so-called leaders are leading from the driving seat of a 30 year-old Charabanc with a dodgy hand painted makeover. Come on Tado, open your minds, redesign properly, use the massive amounts of forum feedback and set up real customer interaction panels to change this market. If you don't, others will.
@hugbilly thanks for reading, and all comments and opinions are welcome, of course :) I do have one question about your response, purely out of interest.
On a many digital timers, there is a "holiday mode" - you say "We will be away for XX days" and the timer suspends all switching activities for XX days, and then re-activates the programs. Arguably this is more convenient than having to remember to open the app and suspend the hot water program and then remember to do the same to re-activate it in a timely manner for your return.
The main use case that defeats this is indeterminate travel arrangements, but this is quite a corner case. Most families with children have a rigid routine based around schooling, even if one parent routinely travels for work, that doesn't mean that anyone is going to be changing the main schedules for CH or HW. This is most likely to apply to single occupancy homes with a job that requires irregular travel at short notice.
I'm not saying that you (or I) or anyone else can't find a use for it, I am asking how useful it actually is if I never know:
a) Did the HW actually heat at all or was the "ON" tile just lit for a while ?
b) Did I even need to activate it in the first place, or was it already warm enough ?
Room heating is different - the system shows me the current room temperature. I activate the heating and I see the temperature change (or it doesn't and I know that I have a secondary issue that needs resolution).
Outside of any of this, tank temperature matters from a hygiene perspective - periodically, it's good to heat the tank past the point that bacteria are killed (60^ for legionella, 70^ to be sure of most everything else). This is way hotter than an average HW requirement for general washing, showering and cleaning day to day, but without the ability to see what temperature your water is, it is not possible to accommodate this kind of additional protection.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a massive tech nerd, I am not against sitting on the beach and activating the HW in my home hundreds or thousands of miles away. I am asking whether the Tado feature achieves anything truly useful, and in my opinion it doesn't without additional function that is presently impossible. My original comments are in the context of development strategy and design approach, and my comments stand. Nobody stood in a design meeting and argued the merits of the HW control in the form that it is today, most likely somebody from marketing stood in a design meeting and said "and don't forget HW, that will be really cool and all our competitors do it."
@Flow Good point.
I think that Tado have a big share of markets where shared (community) hot water systems rather than individual boilers are the source of heat - possibly making the loss of the Internet connection less of a challenge for such markets (the boiler demand isn't lost). The flipside is that boiler-centric markets DO have a problem, and "Internet" issues are not uncommon and it's not only the consumers local connection or WiFi that can be the root cause - ISP failures, Microsoft Azure or AWS changes, general transit faults all lead to the same thing.
Again, this is a fundamental design problem, but with a comparatively "easy" solution. Don't change anything about what you have, or how it works. Create an extra box/stick/whatever, that does have a proper timekeeping source, and sync it with the cloud data for the customer's schedule. Make this device the master device for change when you are in the same building (on the same wifi), otherwise interact with the cloud instance.
Advantages for Tado:
Reduced workload in public cloud instance, as all the heavy lifting is done on the local device by default (if present). That means less cost to Tado for providing the service elements.
The consumer noise abates - there is a viable solution, if it bothers you or you are impacted by this situation you can resolve for a few $$$
It creates a new revenue stream in the portfolio, allowing Tado to monetise poor design choices of the past.
Actually, reading this thread https://community.tado.com/en-gb/discussion/9866/upcoming-rework-of-the-tado-community-forum-what-would-you-like-to-see-changed#latest @Rob lists this thread as a priority right now for the developers, and bookmarking and keeping that thread under review/comment could pay some dividends and alleviate some frustrations.
Tado is not a US based company......German
Does anyone know which cloud provider Tado use?
I know AWS are experiencing outages today, although seems to be confined to North America this time.
Makes me think it would be useful to know which cloud service I am indirectly reliant on to keep my family warm?
I would like to understand:
1)How can I force the control into homekit(say using appletv as homekit controller) in a traditional setup? I added the bridge via homekit network scan/homekit passkey. My assumption was, it would just work as independent setup, do I need to disable something first? In Home Assistant this was just broadcasting/listening after I added it to the controller.
2)This question is regarding limitations in absence of cloud. In a single boiler>multiple TRVs set in dif zones setup. If there is no cloud connection, and one of my TRVs gets a local call to set target temp higher than current temp in the zone, will it send out a call to the extender on the boiler to call for heat/will it stop the call for heat once target temp is reached in the zone? What happens if I have a tado wireless temp sensor in a room, will it send out call to TRV to open up/send out call to extender for heat? I was not able to get an answer from support, they seemed adamant that no local option in any form exists and anything/everything tado related requires and cloud, even in homekit.
Rant alert below:
This will likely never get implemented for commercial reasons. The cloud dependency ensures that certain features generate revenue, makes the product significantly more attractive to an average user because of low use difficulty, generates some revenue and ensures that that product lifecycle refresh stays relevant. Don't want Joe average with local controller using perfectly viable hardware from 15 years ago, if cloud could force sale of newer/better version of hardware. As the saying goes: don't hate the player, hate the game. The model works, and it makes money, it will not change until that changes.That being said, Tado's is big but Apple's is much bigger. As part of hierarchy, all of Apple's tributes had to add chip on their boards for apple secure transport protocols. Luckily, we have this chip on tado bridge(for now). If you want fully local control without an apple homekit controller you can add the homekit controller integration in many smart home platforms, like home assistant(disclaimer:not beginner friendly/not wife tech skills friendly). It is able to pull all the states and call for temp change on TRVs at speeds that cloud based compute can only dream to achieve in the next 15 years because of reduced hops.