Home Suggestions, Ideas and Improvements

Develop a "basic backup schedule" mode for when Tado outage or loss of internet

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  • VertigoVertigo ✭✭✭
    edited December 2019

     It would just make it easier to hack the system to run locally and bypass their cloud functionality entirely.

    Using homekit you can do exactly that, it works locally. Using homeassistant via homekit integration probably too, although I havent tested that thoroughly yet, because whenever I move a device from homekit API to tado API or vice versa, I have to contact tado support and beg them to 'activate' my device again, and wait 4 days. I got fed up enough with not owning my tado hardware that Ive ordered some zigbee TRVs and will probably move away from tado if I can find a taker for my hardware.

    They could even be delivered as part of the premium service and drive some extra revenue for them!

    Charging fees for functionality everyone would assume is included, is not a good long term business strategy. My guess is tado is not in the business of making hardware, nor selling software services to end users. They see us as the product, selling our data to energy companies:

    They quite literally sell diagnostics data on our boilers that they are not providing to the owners of these boilers. We dont even get a warning when our boiler fails.

    Anyway, getting OT, but if you wonder what those sofware devs are doing, that may be part of the answer.

  • samdsamd ✭✭✭

    Algorithms are used by tado 360 to analyse things such as error codes, water pressure, and pump speeds. This can enable predictive maintenance to deliver simple actionable resolutions potentially before a bigger problem occurs.

    How can this be done when they have no access to the boiler?

  • opentherm can provide tado with a ton of info:

    https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/opentherm_gw/

  • samdsamd ✭✭✭

    @Vertigo

    Wow so does that mean that the only connection Tado has to my boiler (NO and COMM wires) gives them the ability to collect boiler data other than when firing etc? If so can you enlighten this thickee!!

  • If you boiler doesnt support opentherm serial data protocol, then obviously, no.

  • samdsamd ✭✭✭

    Worcester Bosch so I'm bullet proof!! Thanks

  • That may support EMS protocol, which tado can also read.

  • samdsamd ✭✭✭

    Sugar! OK I give in!!😉

  • @Vertigo I have no problem with my data being sent to utility companies. I think "heating as a service" is certainly the future. But as you say, this should not come at the expense of personal access to this data.

    Although I agree that charging for expected features is not ideal, it's certainly a lot better than not including those features at all!

    But regardless of what their focus is, improving the user experience of their hardware should still be a priority, otherwise they will lose users and whatever they want to sell, they will not be able to. And some of the changes needed are just so, so simple. It is mind boggling.

  • yes This needs to be revised

  • @Will

     I have no problem with my data being sent to utility companies.

    You should. Its your data. Its up to you to give it to utility companies if you want to. Its not up to tado to collect it, withhold it from you (they are not providing end users with any diagnostic information, or even give them an alert if something fails) and instead give or sell it to third parties.

    I think "heating as a service" is certainly the future. 

    But tado isnt providing us with heating. All they do is collect our data and limit our control over our own hardware.

  • +1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Still no word from Tado on this? @Will I disagree that adding local functionality would make Tado easier to hack - a small schedule table in the hub firmware wouldn't make it easier or harder to reverse engineer but would remove a significant motivation to do so.

    More importantly, lack of a local schedule is probably costing Tado customers when they find out about this. I have recommended people against getting Tado, despite it being otherwise nearly perfect. It's also disappointing that their FAQ implies the system will work with no Internet, when without the Internet the system doesn't work as well as a basic programmable thermostat.
  • I have raised the same issue with no local schedule. TADO should review this issue as internet for everyone does fail every so often so there should be a fail safe approach. I assume the issue is no internal memory on the hub?
  • Another +1 here for Local schedule. I've only had Tado 3 weeks and after reading these forums I'm thinking of getting shot of Tado and changing to Drayton Wiser as they have an option of setting local schedules.

  • fazyfazy
    edited January 31

    Sorry for a "me too" post but I want to put this in my own words and stress just how important it is to design for "offline first".

    My sense of adventure led me to try Tado in the new house - old place had Honeywell EvoHome. The Honeywell was a little boring and clunky in the app, no fancy features but it worked flawlessly with or without the Internet connection. It was literally designed "offline first", i.e. there's a wireless controller with schedules, and if you add the Internet gateway you can use your phone to adjust the schedules. If you lose your Internet connection while at home, you can use the manual controller with touchscreen. If you lose it while away you can't control the heating - obviously - but the schedules carry on as normal. In short, the Honeywell blended into the background and I came to take it for granted.

    Seeing as EvoHome was on the market for 5 years I hoped Tado would have a richer feature set and a nicer app. Worth a try, especially as I could just trial it on one radiator first. Certainly the app is nice, but I cannot fill my house with gear (especially expensive gear) that has such a fundamental design flaw. Instead of buying 15 Tado valves, I might stop at 5. That way, if Honeywell, Tado or anyone releases a system that "just works" in a few years, I haven't wasted too much money.

    In short, Tado has some nice features and it's exciting to get it installed, but after the first few weeks, I want it to blend into the background. Keeping a working heating system is not my chosen hobby. It must work without the Internet like any heating controller, use the Internet to make the experience better and (as that's their revenue model), use the subscriptions to make it even better still.

    (Btw, it's the same with smart light bulbs - I like my few Lifx bulbs for extra accent lighting but won't roll it out throughout the house until manufacturers understand and update the tried and tested design of the light switch instead of abandoning it.)

  • Perhaps I’m not understanding correctly but doesn’t it already do this? https://support.tado.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207373166
  • I do a lot with home automation and have backups: An (few) small UPS if there is a power failure and a 4G connection on the internet router which is used then the normal fixed internet line is broken (some where along the "line").


    The 4G makes sure that Tado keeps working and is usable by the App. In case of power failure the heater does not work anymore, but Tado does...... (and rest of smart home also) for some time.

  • jcwackyjcwacky ✭✭✭

    @RedZombii No. You can manually control each device without an internet connection, but otherwise they just stay stuck on whatever mode they were in when the connection was lost, they do not follow any schedule. This means they stay off or on unless manually changed.

  • I would NEVER have bought my tado if I knew this "feature". An absolutely stupid behaviour of a smart device.

  • Today my internet failed (the connection to my ISP was disconnected due to an external fault). The internal WiFi is from a separate router and was working well. The internet bridge was connected to all tado devices but not the internet, however at 2am when the ISP connection failed I had no warnings from the app, no notifications and all of the heating remained stuck on night time low settings.

    My house slowly dropped in temperature and all of the settings I have for the rooms did not trigger when required.

    Each tado device needs to have a backup or memory for the settings, it should not rely on the tado server and internet connection to function, this is not a smart design. Even my £5 WiFi switches have a memory function for timers and light brightness settings.

    This function is critical to the tado product and needs to be added.
  • SimSim

    This is a poor design from Tado and like ahorvath73 I would of never brought Tado if i knew how it worked without the internet. I have had Tado for 3 months and I have had problems 3 times due to either the Tado server or my internet losing connection. Compare this to Hive which I had for 1.5 years and although the app is boring and limited it worked flawlessly regardless of the internet and I can't recall having one issue!

  • This should just be how it works anyway, not a feature!

    Several occasions I've woken up to a boiling house because one of the rad thermostats has lost connection for instance. It should just fall back to the schedule.
  • Basic feature, but still missing.

    According to support, they don't even consider it having appended😬...

    This is really frustrating, being away i.e on vacation for a longer period is going to be nerve-wrecking, one might come home to a freezing house or a boiler wreaking havoc on the radiators having no fall-back system to rely on.

  • Lack of automatic control when no internet connection is a Serious flaw that has resulted in me insisting friends do not install TADO. I am sure the bridge could be updated to hold schedules and allow communication with devices without access to the cloud. This would make TADO a very attractive package.

  • Agree, Schedules could be stored on the Thermostat internal memory and keep working as a normal Thermostat without any dependency on internet when that fails.

  • edited September 1

    I'm with you all on this, I had my internet down a few weeks ago (on the day my second daughter was born, at home!) and we didn't have any hot water left in the tank because the system isn't smart enough. This resulted in my wife not being able to have a shower after having the baby, and me getting shouted at because I bought a system that's meant to be simple and smart.

    @Ash87 @Will understand completely how simple this must be to achieve.

    Saying it doesn't have internal memory is highly unlikely, and this bit of code shouldn't be tricky to achieve or consume much capacity. Surely it's as simple as hosting a backup version of the schedule table on the device, and then adding a line of code saying: If cloud table unresponsive for 20s, attempt local table.

    This would be the same process they should/could be using for multiple server locations in the event of AWS being down etc.

    I didn't see any of these 'missing feature' issues in reviews when I bought my tado... maybe we should all go back and write reviews / edit ones we've already written?... Then new users can invest their cash with a different company with an active development team.

    @Germán - Is this on the roadmap?

  • Two solutions.

    1. Upgraded extension kit and smart stat package that use Wifi to connect directly to router or mesh node and act as a hub / range extender for connected devices. With a 4g back up incorporated in the event of a router outage.
    And a stored back up schedule to maintain service during external connection outages. Which could be at tado's end as easily as they could be at home.

    2. A plug in Bridge which incorporates a pass through plug socket.
    Powerline capable using standard systems.
    Range Extender for Wifi networks
    Range Extender for Tado Devices
    Can be set as master or slave in a multi bridge set up.
    And has an external failure fall back schedule to maintain local control in the event of an external comms failure.

    Both could be sold as upgrades.
    Number 2 has meritd as it provides better coversge and could be added to an existing system replacing or augmenting the existing bridge, and providing extra services to the user
    As a poweline range extender for their home wifi.

    A swiss army knife that enhances the Tado offering and adds robust control without damaging the commercial asoect.
  • If internet is lost, Tado should carry on with the Smart Scheduled as programmed by the user. So if the user programmed the boiler to produce hot water from 7am to 8am on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, this should take place regardless of internet connection. This behaviour is found in practically all things smart, i.e. smart sockets or switches: Lights will turn on at the specified time of the day even without internet.

    This morning I woke up to find there was no hot water, and later realised Tado connection simply dropped around the time the boiler was programmed to work. No warnings, no fullback, no nothing... just a cold splash of water on my spine when I turned on the shower. We are talking about an expensive system here and my opinion is that this is simply unacceptable.

    Not "smart" enough Tado! Please kindly issue a fix.

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