What additional Tado kit do I need to add control for a single wet UFH zone?
Hi.
My house is currently set up as follows: Combi boiler for all central heating (and hot water). I have the 'Wireless Smart Thermostat Starter Kit V3+ with Hot Water Control' setup to run the central heating. We don't use the hot water control but needed this setup as the thermostat is not wired to the boiler. Let's call this Zone A.
What I want to do now is find a solution to use Tado to also control a new zone, kitchen with wet UFH in new extension. Let's call this Zone B. I want a new Tado thermostat in Zone B to be able to call the boiler for heat independently of Zone A (i.e. Zone A can get triggered without Zone B warming up and vice versa).
I think part of the solution will be adding a zone valve between the boiler and Zone A. The manifold for the UFH is a already a zone valve for Zone B. As otherwise when the boiler is called for Zone B Zone A will also get heated.
Apart from the correct zone valving, what Tado equipment do I need? Do I need another wireless starter kit with hot water control?
Thanks
Answers
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I've been told I would need another wireless starter kit but that would mean having 2 internet bridges and 2 wireless receivers?
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@jcreno Hello. AFAIK, the simplest answer for extending a typical wet heating system and UFH, that builds on your existing Tado controls …
- Fit Tado TRVs on the Rads in Zone A.
- A Tado wired thermostat to control the UFH Zone B.
- You get full control of all Rooms in A and the new UFH in B.
- When fitting TRVs on all Rads, the question to answer is whether an external 'bypass' is required for the boiler?
- Presumably the boiler and plumbing will accommodate the extra UFH heating load?
- If you are happy to add a zone valve for Zone A, that could work; but involves plumbing and re-wiring.
If in any doubt, best to consult a qualified heating engineer that knows your heating system.
HTH
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@wateroakley thanks for taking the time to reply. I think I'll need to speak to an engineer about it as the builders didn't run a cable for the new thermostat to the boiler..just a cable for it to be mains powered.
I also wanted to avoid having TRVs in zone A as we have traditional radiator valves and I can't say I like the aesthetics of TRVs.
Maybe the solution will be to run a wireless thermostat for zone B and then put in a wired one in zone A (still doing some building work in this area).
Thanks again for replying
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Does the UFH have a manifold partnered with a wiring centre which actuates the relevant UFH loops?
Does that UFH just handle one room or more? In my home the UFH system handles all of downstairs, 4 rooms, hence 4 thermostats. Need to be clear.
The thermostats for the UFH actuators need to wire into the actuators via a wiring centre. That then opens a zone valve for zone B. Make sure your Zone A has an automatic bypass valve, triggered by the UFH wiring centre.
If your can't run the cables from the thermostats to the manifold wiring centre, then you'll have to fit pairs, where the wired stats control the UFH loops and wireless sensors are mated with them to tell them when to activate.0 -
@policywonk thanks for replying. UFH is just one large open plan area. Re your last point on pairing on thermostats, is this possible with Tado? So for Zone B I could have a wired thermostat in the basement next to the UFH manifold and boiler, but have that paired with a wireless Tado thermostat in the room? Is this still possible given I already have a wireless thermostat working the radiators in zone A? Thanks
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@jcreno A Smart WIRED thermostat, which is hooked onto the wiring centre at the UFH manifold would, when there is a call for heat, trigger UFH relevant pump, and pass on the electrical call for heat to the main wiring centre. To establish commanding control over that smart thermostat, one has to set up a Tado Smart Wireless Sensor as the Zone Controller, with the wired thermostat under its control- this is defined in the App.
Hence, if the ZONE B wireless sensor registers a need for heat, the ZONE B wired thermostat receives that message and activates the actuators (the two communicating wirelessly), the UFH pump and the ZONE B Zone valve in one go.
Is this clear? I have four different wireless sensors in my home. One happens to control four smart TRV'd radiators in one large room, the other 3 handle communication with their UFH linked rooms. They dont confuse each other.
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@policywonk That's pretty clear thank you. And this may be a stupid question but the wireless Tado thermostat on Zone B can be wired to the mains (it doesn't need to be battery powered)?
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Good question. The actual voltage for the actuator comes from the UFH wiring centre. All the Tado stat does is complete the circuit, take the voltage from the wiring centre, open the actuator by passing it on, and through the UFH manifold, wake the boiler and pump.
So it internally uses its batteries to arrange temps and open or close the relays inside it to power the actuators.
So your challenge is whether your UFH wiring centre is ready to handle that and whether you understand how to wire it.
Once every few months you have to change the batteries in the Tado stat. The app will tell you when.
Your understanding of this is important because UFH systems are tricky when they misbehave, and knowing this is key.
When you have enough let us know, otherwise keep asking.1 -
@policywonk bit of bad communication between the builder and electrician. It turns out the electrician has ran a 5 core cable from Zone B back to where the manifold/boiler are located. So given this I believe I just need a wired thermostat!
Really appreciate your helpful replies above.
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Hi. Going through this:
Am assuming that all the controls to your motorised valves and the boiler are in mains switching mode. Now if your boiler is capable of modulating in digital mode as well, you should let us know now, before it becomes irreversible.
Your UFH manifold should really have a wiring centre (even if it is a one port manifold) to enable you to see when the actuator is on. This will help on the days when stuff fails and will help you to diagnose whats gone wrong. The Tado wired stat is wired into the manifold so that it switches the actuator when there is a call for heat. The UFH wiring centre then also passes on the call for heat in two ways (i) it opens the zone valve to the UFH manifold (ii) it turns on the pump on that manfold - which should be set to differential delta pressured curve, not a constant pressure (iii) it's call for heat message can be passed onto the central wiring centre by the boiler, where the zone valve for Zone A is also present.
Put simply: only one 3 core cable runs from that manifold/UFH wiring centre (ZONE B) to the boiler's main wiring centre. The wireless sensor in the required room is then mated to the wired thermostat.
More specifically: the UFH wiring centre would have four cables. (1) Local 3 core power from mains to the manifold wiring centre. (2) Three core call for heat passed onto the main wiring centre, not the UFH wiring centre, using mains voltage, which opens and closes the zone B motorised valve. (3) two core wire going from the UFH wiring centre to the UFH actuator(s). (4) 3 core power supplied to the UFH pump.
Somequestions:
- Your existing boiler: Whats the exact model? Is it a combie? Does it have the capacity to operate in digital modulated mode, or is it one which is purely managed with on-off controls?
- Is the first pump from the boiler controlled directly by the boiler, or is it outside it, controlled by the wiring centre?
- Did your builder/plumber calculate the heat demand for the house rads not using the UFH, and the zone driven by UFH and determine whether your boiler could handle the combined demand within its existing capacity, or would it need to prioritise one over the other, depending on the time of day? This is important - because it will save you having to face dramas in the next few years- builders often forget to do that calculation.
- Before the Zone B was added, was the original distribution of heat for HW, or CH, determined by a Y Plan, S Plan. You mentioned a hot water control kit, which I presume is the extension kit, also known as a Wireless Receiver.
Am asking because your answers to these questions determine the role and placement of a motorised valve for Zone A (usually after the pump) and whether the motorised valve for Zone B is also placed in a similar positon (after the pump).
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