Give users access to the advanced configuration parameters
Comments
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That's would be useful also for create by ourselves a "summer" mode, in which all the thermostatic heads remains open while the boiler is off..
In these days I'm trying to understand how i can leave open all my valves to bleed my radiators, but seems that all I can do is unmount all the valves (not so funny calculating that are a lot of valves...) and your suggestion could solve also my situation..2 -
+1 from my side! Please implement
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+1 for this topic on my side 👍🏻
Tado, please consider implementing the features requested in this topic 🙏🏻
I'd personally would use these a lot
- set valve position
- adjust cycling time
- set max boiler activity per day
- set maximum thermostats calls for heat
- radiator valve hysteresis control
- night mode
Thanks!
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@Rob Curious to know what your thoughts are now that the thread has fleshed out and people have been giving their perspectives! :)
If you're at liberty to say it would also be interesting to know how the config parameters are currently accessed (i.e. is it a config file locally on each device accessed through the internet bridge, something server side or something else entirely?). It would also be super useful to know what the full list of configuration parameters are, this would trim down some of the extraneous parameter suggestions happening here and it would help customers communicate with support better when changing parameters.
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I'd absolutely love to see this feature; happy to accept the disclaimer - it's my boiler, I accept responsibility.
At the very least, please provide an Advanced config page that lists what the existing 'hidden' settings are, which might help some of us here to know whether those settings are hindering our configuration.3 -
hello @pcone unfortunately I don't have any actionable updates. We did discuss this recently, with some employees saying that we could implement some type of 'pro mode' to the app for more advanced customers. But this was only a conversation, far from concrete.
Right now, the main focus for our developers is making all features available on tado° X also available in V3+ and vice versa.1 -
Here's a real world example of where this feature is desperately needed and would help to keep customers!
The Tado heating algorithm makes use of three stages of heating - Low, Medium, High, I guess this relates to how far from the desired setpoint the current temperature is - resulting in the call for heat lasting longer in terms of minutes (Low 2-3, Medium 12, High various)
The Low call for heat just wastes time and money with my boiler, since it doesn't allow it long enough for my radiators to heat up. I contacted support and went through a painful process of trying to explain my issue and seemingly getting nowhere; all I was asking them to do was to increase the Low mode to a MINIMUM ON time of 6 minutes.
If I could set these parameters myself, including things like how far the temp can drop before it activates each mode, I'd be much happier. Instead, I'm now considering selling my Tado which has turned out to be an expensive mistake, and I'll be rolling my own setup in Home Assistant with a basic thermostat and a relay - I then have complete control over the logic, which Tado just doesn't allow.
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Well said. It's like I wrote that. It's precisely what I need for exactly the same reason. Thank you.
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@almostfixedit I faced the same problem with my system, not least because I've range rate my boiler down to the minimum output of 9 kW. The default burn time was just 3 minutes, 40 seconds, followed by 5 minutes of pump overrun. There was almost no heat being added to the whole house, while the pump was running tepid water round the system, just wasting energy and money.
At my request, three years ago, my minimum burn time was increased to ten minutes. Perfect!
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I have the same problem with UFH - what's the point of turning on water based underfloor heating for few minutes? But I'm unable to communicate with support even with urgent issues (like heating domestic water to 60 degrees, despite settings in the app), so...0
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@almostfixedit very similar experience here. I have now got my system behaving in a mostly reasonable fashion after going back and forth with support for months (long breaks in between while I tested things and had to make exact notes of when and what to report back - not support taking that long to get back to me). In the end after all this backing and forthing I got them to set the parameters how I originally asked them to, which they didn't originally do and started fiddling with other parameters that didn't really help the awful short cycling and illogical behaviour I was getting 🙃I'd have had this working as I wanted shortly after installation if I had been able to access these parameters myself.
Again I'm glad that the option is at least there to get these adjusted via support, but we can make it so, so much easier and better than this.
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@almostfixedit You have to careful about setting the “minimum on time”. I understand it is very useful for smart TRV, but I have purchased separate smart thermostats in each room and this setting is not necessary any more.
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I was looking into something similar recently too, as our boiler comes on more frequently since we've installed Tado X and when it does, it's on for only few minutes.
For example, the room thermostat will read 20.1degC (setpoint is 20.0degC), the system will come on for 5minutes and then off - repeat after 10-15minutes (it varies). The room temperature didn't even had a chance to drop slightly.
Normally, I would expect that the temperature would need to drift a bit more before heating is enabled (lets say down to 19.7degC before heating comes on and switches off at 20.3degC). Otherwise the system comes on/off too often, compared to what Tado advertises. I don' really need a precise +/-0.1degC temperature control…
I have raised this with the Support to check if there is an option to adjust the hysteresis on the system and the response was:
In contrast to our V3+ and previous generations of products, we willnottroubleshoot using PID changes or heat-up gradient adjustments with the new line of X devices, as per our launch.If you have a specific error, we will need detailed explanation to escalate the case.So yes…a bit on the fence here in terms of the new Tado X product….
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So… I was passed over to another support agent who was more helpful and attempted to explain what could and couldn't be done. The only thing I was able to achieve after all this, and I've given up on Tado now, is that I have a minimum on time of 7 minutes. In parting the agent said that he would pass on my comments to the developers but he couldn't realistically see anything changing; I'm thinking that's because it's such a headache for us to request anything in the first place!
My journey to this point has not been without difficulty. I know my boiler better than I know my poor wife, who's been an absolute saint as I tweaked the heck out of our boiler; If you've got a Potterton Promax Ultra combi (or the equivalent Baxi Luna-Duo Tec) I can point you in the direction of how to make it more efficient.
The upshot of it all is this. Tado aren't going to make changes that will really benefit my boiler. Their mystical advanced parameters are not meant to be tweaked, and how would I know what to ask to be tweaked because they don't tell me what can be tweaked…
Since my last contact with them I've discovered that my dumb thermostat that the V3 replaced is actually pretty good now - even that gives me a minimum on time and a bandwidth of how much temp drop before it calls for heat.
I've since taken delivery of a smart relay that will be put into the heating circuit to be operated by Home Assistant, where power and control is absolutely not withheld from the consumer - heck, I can foresee that my heating will in future be triggered by a lovely blend of sensors, timing, motion, solar gain… you name it. For now, my V3 will sit on the wall in a limited capacity, but it doesn't really have a future in my smart home.
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Whilst my Tado system is quite simple I do have 1or 2 “niggles” that it would be good to be able to adjust myself, so I thoroughly agree that it would be good to have access to the advanced features. It could be handled as they do on mobile phones (iPhones anyway) where there is an explanation that if you change this parameter then this….. will happen. A return to previous setting button would also be good.
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@SamuraiJack They refuse to change any parameters for Tado X?? That's… not good lol. Not when the heating logic is not logical out of the box. Being able to change these settings at least through support was the only thing holding Tado together for many people, myself included. Without that, it would have had to go in the bin if I had X instead of V3+. If that's true then that makes this suggestion even more vital.
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@FreshFromTheGrave that's correct, they have said that no adjustments are made for Tado X.
This does not make much sense, my theory is that perhaps V3+ had a little bit more control built in locally, whilst huge part of Tado X may be dependent on the internet connection + servers and scripts driving Tado X.
That would explain why some X users had various complaints on the operation of the system whenever they experienced connectivity issues etc.
My bet would also be that if X was completely disconnected from the internet then you would see the system operate like a good old thermostat i.e. +/-0.5degC band compared to current +/-0.1 operation.0 -
A large part of the frustration - for me, at least - is that I know there are tweakable parameters that could potentially improve the way the system works in my home, but I don’t even know what they are. Hunting through forum posts for reports of support changing this or that setting is not helpful.
Perhaps as a very early step in the right direction, a list of the settings that support can adjust (but we can’t) could be published? Or even just made available on request?3 -
Sadly I am giving up on Tado too. My boiler service man recently visited to do the annual service and has mentioned to me that the boiler has signs of excessive short-cycling. He looked at the app and said there were not enough fine-tune settings to allow my boiler to work well with Tado. When I mentioned my boiler was listed in the app when setting it up, he just shrugged and said that whatever settings had been applied to my boiler were not right.
I asked him if he had worked with tado before and he said he hadn't personally, but most of the plumbers he knew won't touch a system fitted with tado as they cause more issues than they solve. He advised removing the system as the constant short-cycling would end up killing the boiler's burner and electronics significantly faster. I will be doing so just as soon as Amazon can deliver the replacement system. he and my plumber recommended when they talked in my presence.
I now understand why I got the system for a song from my neighbour. In fairness he did try to warn me, but I knew better. I admit now, he was right, I was wrong!
Its a shame, but my boiler man said if it had a minimum burn time setting on the app, he reckoned it would make a bad system pretty good, but he did say it felt like a system designed by coders making a central heating controller, whereas it should be a central heating system manufacturer employing coders, a subtle difference, but it does make sense.
I ordered the system my plumber recommended, it's a smart system made by a central heating system manufacturer.
It an expensive mistake, but we live and learn I suppose. I will try to sell the tado on eBay, perhaps its next owner will have more luck that I did.
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@User1234 which one did you go for? Wiser by Drayton/Schneider?0
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It was the former, but I've since learned that I have an alternative that I'd not considered so I'm reconsidering that. Secure Meters have a direct smart controller to replace mine. I want to get it right this time.
I may use independent KASA TRVs as they use their own Hubs of which there can be more than one if needed (unlike tado). Secure Meters do TRVs, but they're not directly connected to the Controller and can't be controlled remotely, so they're out really. KASA also have everything I wanted feature wise like a Night (quiet) Mode, and setting that allows the choice of leaving the valves open or close in summer, free geofencing and open window sensing and external temperature sensors for sensible money.
I rushed into tado before researching, which, if I had taken the time, I would not have bought into tado, even at the price I paid, as I say, we live and learn.
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I've looked into Kasa but read the reviews with some complaining about TRV noise (even with night mode enabled) and some even wrote that their TRV pins were bent after one of the software updates... That's why I went with Tado but might be good to see what your experience is like when you get to try them.0
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@SamuraiJack I noted one or two reviews about that too, but having taken a trip out to my local electrical store I bought a single KASA TRV Kit (with hub) to play with and I can confirm that once I updated the Firmware, it seems to be pretty good.
One thing I worry about is noise, but the noise it makes on the radiator is no better or worse than the tado TRV. Both TRVs are practically silent off the rad, so it's the rad itself that amplifies the noise.
Night Mode doesn't make things quieter, it reduces the amount of activations. I can't tell how for certain as I've not had it long, but I did notice this morning that there were only two activations of my Master Bedroom KASA TRV whereas the tado one was always either three or four so I'm thinking perhaps 'graduations' are turned off in favour of just 'maximum' and 'off'.
Can't comment on bent rad pins, but so far so good for me. As for anything, I guess there will always be the odd issue, but as the reviews mentioning this were few in number, I would assume any issues with this would have been long since fixed.
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Not sure why there was a purge of someone's comments and what looks like either getting banned or a deleted account also deletes comments (silly if true). I wasn't able to reply earlier but our unknown friend had some legitimate grievances. I would hope that the ban/delete is from something else or them deleting their own account and not simply discussing grievances and alternatives in a polite fashion.
Replying from memory but they said they had a heating engineer round to service their boiler and the engineer said that there were signs of excessive short cycling and that this was going to prematurely kill the burner. They'd discussed aspects of Tado like selecting the boiler in the app but this didn't appear to apply any sensible settings for the boiler, and the engineer had recommended a different system because of these issues and the lack of being able to customise the parameters to suit the appliance. The engineer had said that the system seemed like it was designed by coders making a central heating controller rather than how a central heating company would design the same system. (This was all worded far better than I can recall in the now deleted comments - but you get the gist)
This is a real indictment of the heating logic that Tado comes with out of the box. If a professional who works with boilers every single day finds signs of excessive wear and tear caused by excessive short cycling (an issue that has brought many of us here today) that we all know is caused by Tado's default heating logic - then it's simply not been appropriately designed. Selecting your boiler in the app should load up some sensible default parameters for your appliance not send the thing to an early grave. Without intervention Tado thought it sensible to fire my old cranky Potterton on and off every couple of minutes…
We really need these parameters exposed to users and I believe it should be a priority. Sensible heating logic is the most fundamental function of a thermostat and if it can't heat the home in a sensible fashion that doesn't damage the thing doing the heating, then every other value add feature doesn't really matter does it?
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I completely agree with you but I have noticed a trend with a lot of those new 'smart' thermostat systems, where not a lot detailed documentation is available on them.
For example as a Tado X user you can find a lot of generic information but I can't find any details on what logic actually sits on the wireless controller locally (assume not a lot as it heavily depends on the internet), don't know how weather adaptation works (and I can't switch it off either) and the support says that they do not modify any of the default settings. And even they don't publish any software release logs, so you don't know what changes have been made.
The system tries to maintain a fixed temperature setpoint at all cost, with little regard to actual boiler operation (sounds little contradictory doesn't it? Especially for a smart thermostat...).
Because of this weird set up, it feels like the whole system was designed by software, rather than heating engineers.
As an example I have noticed instances where my boiler would be enabled for literally 40 seconds (yes you read it right), before being switched off for another 5-10 minutes. The pump overrun itself is 3 minutes...
To me it feels like this is how the product was set up to work but it doesn't mean it's right...
It would be good to know if this short cycling will be revised with one of the software updates in the long term or at least Tado could allow users to have more ability to adjust some of those settings within the app themselves.1 -
When I asked support for help in limiting short cycling the boiler and ufh pump I got the following response:
"Hello,
Thank you for contacting us.
The tado° Smart Thermostat uses PID (Proportional-Integral-Derivative) control. This means that tado° not only looks at the current temperature, but also considers the overall temperature trend and rate of change.
The Smart Thermostat will turn the heating on until the room temperature is just above your desired set-point. Then, it’ll keep the heating off until the temperature starts to drop.
In this way, tado° prevents your heating system from switching on and off too often, helping to protect your boiler from excessive wear and tear, and making energy consumption more efficient.
The PID control also anticipates temperature changes. For example, when tado° detects a rapid drop in temperature, it may start to heat to prevent the temperature from dropping too far below the set-point, even if the current temperature is initially above the desired level.
Please note that, with PID control, some temperature overshoots can occur. This means that sometimes the room temperature may slightly exceed the set-point before stabilising. This is a normal aspect of PID control and helps to maintain a more constant temperature."
I was advised by installers to choose different system, but I knew better... ☹️0 -
To make matters worse, this whole PID thing is totally invisible. If one looks at the history trends he can tell that "room A was one bar heating between 2000-2045 minutes, room B was 2 bars heating for 2030-2100 hour". But if one is like "OK, when was my heater on?" there is no visibility at all there
Here is an example:
- At 1751 my bedroom thermostat fires up at one bar because temperature is close to the 18C threshold.
- It stays at one bar till 2030 when smart schedule changes to 19C. During that period temperature gradually drops to 17.9C.
I have no idea what Tado is doing during that period. Was the boiler on for three hours? Did it simply open the valves to allow how water in the radiator but stopped short of firing up the boiler (which was fired by the Office though, so there was hot water thankfully)? Would it try to fire the boiler for very short periods that would normally have no effect if my Office thermostat was off? Something else?
Ideally I should be able to get answers to the above WITHOUT opening a discussion with support
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So an answer that is as generic as it can be, without actually helping the end user in any way...0
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Scroll up 5 posts from yours and you’ll see the post you’re quoting. It was from me and is still there in fairness. 😊
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