Misunderstanding on screwfix.co.uk - What next?

C0mbat · November 14

I posted the attached question to the screwfix website last week, prior to purchasing the V3+ wireless kit. I'm now trying to install the kit and when I search for the existing programmer model in the app it's telling me that the Timeguard TRT038 is not compatible. So Tado lied to me. Not only have I wasted £84.99 at screwfix but I've also spent a further £60 on an additional wired thermostat on eBay, like they told me to. So how do I get a refund for both because Tado lied?

Alternatively, can someone confirm if the app is wrong and it is actually compatible like Tado said?

policywonk · November 14

@C0mbat An initial glance studying the TRT038 guide, really don't see any big problem with replacing that.

However there are unknowns. Three channel systems can have complicated wiring. When implementing a Tado system most of us are trying to reduce our energy costs, so am asking questions so we can think about this and help you make it work.

As an example many new users found that their boiler could be operated more efficiently by being run in a different mode to the present one. If you don't mind we need to grasp what you have in there.

Would you set out the following
1. What exact boiler model do you have?
2. Is it an SPlan or combination of S plan and Y plan?
3. How many wired thermostats are installed? Where are they? Do they control motorised zone valves?
4. You happy checking the wiring for the existing thermostats and zone valves?
5. Do you have a hot water tank?
6. Do you have TRVs installed?
7. Is this a large house with thick stone walls?
8. Are you in the screwfix forum because you are a plumber or sparkie?

I don't think they lied, perhaps responded before thinking through your needs adequately and this time, sadly, one caused irritation.

We can help. Your answers will help shape the steps needed. You may need a mains voltage tester to double check some of the wiring.

This community of end users does try to help out and the good part is we learn from each other and I've never seen any bull****.

Willowfield · November 15

Great response from PolicyWonk

C0mbat · November 15

Thanks for your quick response and I appreciate your questions in order to try and resolve my issue. Here are the answers:

I have a Worcester Greenstar 38CDi Classic boiler – FYI it supplies hot water on demand on the groundfloor, zoned (controlled by multiple thermostats) underfloor heating on the ground floor, and then heating to the 1st and 2nd floor radiators and hot water tank via the Timeguard TRT038 3 channel programmer
I’m not really sure if it’s Y plan or S plan but from my basic knowledge from just googling those terms I think it’s S Plan. I’ve attached a photo that might help you.
I'm being specific to the 1st and 2nd floor here as that is the only thing I'm trying to deal with - There is one thermostat on the 1st floor and one on the 2nd floor. I think the above photo helps with the rest of your question?
I've attached some photos of the internal wiring of one of the thermostats. Do you need me to unscrew the zone valve housing and do the same? And if so is it the two boxes on the left of the above photo that are labelled 2nd Floor and 1st Floor Heat?

5. Yes. You can see the box labelled HW in the first photo above

6. No

7. Yes. But why are you asking? It's an old Victorian house that was significantly renovated in about 2015. It's not Energy A rated as they put double plaster board on every wall in the house, tripled glazed it and added heat recovery ventilation and solar. The solar also heats the hot water tank

8. No

policywonk · November 15

Hi. Going through your answers.
1. It transpires that your boiler can operate in what Tado calls the HT-BUS mode with a digital control. This makes it run more efficiently than when configured to run in dumb on-off mode by that current controller and the current stats.
2. Noted.
3&4. Those thermostats are simple. Do get their model numbers, will need that.
* this website: https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Central_Heating_Controls_and_Zoning
** It provides the wiring for an S PLUS Plan.
** You may need to check that your wiring centre is actually wired like that.

5&6. Noted. Will come back to that later.
7. If it's a very large house you may need the Tado X system. However it is likely that the tado v3+ series will work.
Some recommendations:
A. Contact Tado via the App and tell them that you have a Greenstar 38cdi classic, with 3 zones with three motorised two-port zone valves, two of which are central heating, triggered by simple wall thermostats; the third is the HW Tank feed
* That you need to change this to run in HT BUS mode D17, via connector ST19.
* That you need full instructions and a complete reconfiguration plan to move it from a 3 channel TRT038 controller and still use the HT BUS capacity for both CH and HW.
* Give them the model numbers of your existing stats. Remind them that there are two!
B. They may recommend that you buy an EU extension kit and two wired stats and then give you the wiring instructions.
C. If you are confused, come back.

wateroakley · November 15

Hello @C0mbat Welcome. I'd concur with the good advice from @policywonk.

Looking at the 3-channel TRT038 installation manual … in principle:

Tado wireless starter kit. The wireless receiver in the starter kit will replace the old programmer for CH1 and HW. You'll bridge the wiring at the old thermostat for CH1.
Tado wired thermostat. This runs off batteries and will replace the old thermostat for CH2.
Installation. When you start the install, Tado support will provide detailed wiring instructions that most competent DIYers can follow. However, 3-Channel wiring can be more complicated. If there is any doubt with electrical circuits, best to engage a qualified professional. The professional manuals are on the Tado web site.

PS. My experience of Screwfix returns and refunds is 5*. Can't say the same for an internet marketplace.

C0mbat · November 15

@policywonk Thanks for your help so far. It's been amazing!!!

It seems that the model is the Robus RRF10 as the RRF10 printed on the inside in small writing and that matches the images online of that unit.

With regards to checking the wiring, is it enough to check the wiring going in to the "time controller" (as it's labelled in the wiki page) rather than anywhere else? Or do I need to check more than that like the zone valves? And should I expect the instructions from Tado to guide me though it? I've put a photo of the wiring behind the Timeguard programmer below.

Can I confirm that you still think I'll be able to make the Tado wireless receiver control all three existing separate channels separately? The reason I say that is that most of what I find online states that the wireless receiver can only control one heating channel and one hw channel.

I'll contact Tado via the App just now with the details that you told me to send above.

Thanks again!

hugbilly · November 15

If you’re so early on in the purchase / install process you might consider returning what you’ve bought to Screwfix (who have an admirable returns policy) and instead purchase a three channel Drayton Wiser system. Not only can they provide a three channel hub, the Wiser range also includes signal boosters. Tado° V3 kit uses a very low power RF signal, properties with thick walls can present problems, and tado° does not offer signal boosters to help with this . . .

wateroakley · November 15

@C0mbat The wireless receiver in the wireless starter kit will control one CH zone and the HW. In the 3-channel case, you will need to add a wired thermostat. An alternative design for the wireless starter kit is to link CH1 and CH2 together to form a single CH 'zone' (joining wires on P1 and P3) and use Tado TRVs on the rads to control which rooms are heated.

How many rads are there on the pipework for each of the two CH zone valves?

Joining both CH … with a 'call for heat', both zone valves on the heating pipes will open. Subject to the limits of 10 zones and 25 devices, the Tado TRVs on individual rads will control which rooms are heated and when.

The result should be (mostly) seamless and is very efficient for our family-size home. The graph below shows our energy results with smart controls from 2022, versus our town and lowest level postcode. No promises that anyone else can achieve the same.

EDIT: Typo.

policywonk · November 16

Have you found the wiring centre? Had time to study the wiring and match it to the drawing of the s plan plus? Am really asking whether you are comfy updating the wiring at the wiring centre or whether you're going to ask for a sparkie.
The reason why?Tados work on the basis of a two channel environment and, although it is easy to work around that, it is more logical to modify the connections in that wiring centre so that
a) There are only two channels, one for CH, one for HW.
b) The CH channel has two zone valves assigned and two wired thermostats, wrist the HW has one zone valve assigned.
This guide: https://community.tado.com/en-gb/discussion/comment/84536#Comment_84536?utm_source=community-search&utm_medium=organic-search&utm_term=policywonk
Sets out the steps to change the wiring centre to operate as a two channel system.
I recommend that you do that first before you replace the existing programmer or stats.

This changes need about 3-4 hours of someone to update the wiring centre's connections. You up for that? It is easier than it first seems.

policywonk · November 16

@C0mbat. Sorry that last post was really not well written. Needs some additions.

No need to open up the zone valves. Those are, fortunately, consistent.

These are preparatory recommended steps.

If you have time this weekend, it is worth grabbing some sticky labels and a ball point pen.

Open up the wiring centre, a box, usually about 7" x 9" x 2". Into it goes the wires serving:
1. the pump
2. the boiler
3. the three motorised valves
4. the two wired thermostats
5. the 3 channel controller.
Go to: Central Heating Controls and Zoning - DIYWiki. Scroll down and you'll find this diagram (see below), for the S PLAN PLUS, with a three channel time controller. Print that diagram blown up to A4 size, so you have it to hand.
Locate your wiring centre and make the time to ensure that you can trace (and label) wires in that wiring centre. This will take about 2 hours.
Now take a photo of the wiring centre, with the labels in place. You will need an electrical testing screwdriver. Now, slowly, check the wires, going left to right, and ensure that everything is wired to be consistent with the above diagram.
1. It wont result in any functional changes, but does ensure that you arent driven mad when there is a fault- and if a professional is called out to help, he/she will recognise the wiring.
  1. Everything will work just the same as before.
  2. Test everything to make sure it works. If something doesnt, study the photos and go back a step, check, work out what went wrong, go forward again.
  3. This will take about 4 hours if you take it slowly - and that helps.
Now study this thread: Help with 3 channel thermostat — tado° Community. The third comment down, identifies how to take the wiring from the way it is set out in the above picture and amend it. It modifies a three channel, three zone wiring layout, and resets it into a 2 channel 3 zone layout. Once the mods are completed, your existing programmer can still control everything, but in two channel mode.
1. This enables the wiring to be ready for the Tado bits.
2. When you've finished, stick that A4 sheet on the wall near the wiring centre.
3. Everything should still work.
4. This last part will take you less than one hour.
You may choose to hire a sparkie for steps 3-5. Or, it might be good if you do it yourself, to have someone double check every step of the way as you do this.
Moving onto the thermostats, do inform Tado that the existing onese are ROBUS RRF10. Here's a link Robus RRF10 Thermostat 2300W 230V where you can download their installation guide: it is important to label the wires going into the thermostats as follows:
1. PIN 3 named COM and LIVE
2. PIN 2 named NO.
3. PIN 6 named NEUTRAL.
4. Don't lose these labels. When you get to fitting the Tado stats you should have everything ready.

The steps to this point ensure that everything still operates in DUMB ON-OFF MODE, but comply with present day standards. In this way, if there is a problem, a professional will spot it quickly. If you hit a glitch, take photos, come back.

Getting the right kit

8. Now Tado's reps and @wateroakley originally recommended that you obtain a wireless starter kit and one additional wired thermostat. So @wateroakley, @Emcee would you double check my recommendations please? I think @C0mbat actually needs the following:

Reorganised wiring to operate in Two Channel mode. I know that one of the wired stats can take on the third channel but that makes the wiring on the wall more complicated. In this way am aiming to minimise confusion because the wiring to the boiler needs to be reorganised to distinguish between the wires that provide digital controls and trigger heat, and the wiring which powers the boiler. It could be that both were run from mains cables originally and it is important that risks are reduced.
Order
- ONE x Tado kit with an EU wireless receiver - to engage the Worcester in EMS-BUS mode (what Tado calls HT-BUS mode), a digital interface. Therefore it needs the EU version not the UK version, fitted to connector ST19 on the boiler, configured to run in D17 mode.
- TWO x Tado Smart Wired thermostats fitted in relay mode, to replace each of the existing wired stats. However these need to be configured in dumb mode, so that their wiring can control the corresponding motorised valves.

@C0mbat - dont forget to inform Tado that your existing Thermostats are ROBUS RRF10. Dont fit anything from Tado until Tado has given you full instructions. If you chose to do this with the help of another pair of eyes it will save time and reduce risk.

First modify the wiring going from the boiler to the wiring centre. Do this carefully. Replacing the programmer and fitting the wireless receiver should take an hour.
Replace the thermostats - should take about another hour.

9. Now. Double check everything. Keep in touch with support and make sure the app fully registers what you've done. Turn it on. Should work.

dcweather · November 16

Phew, glad I just had to just replace my wall thermostat and add one Tado TRV and plug and go! 🙂

wateroakley · November 17

@policywonk Your detailed answers put me to shame. 👍

policywonk · November 17

@C0mbat. This isn't difficult. Just needs work and it is worth it. Do come back if you want more help.

C0mbat · November 22

@policywonk - You're desire to help others goes well beyond what I've experienced before and I can only thank you again for that as it's amazing. And sorry for the delay in responding, I've been travelling all week.

I see your very detailed post from the 16th Nov and want to check a couple of things. And please don't take anything below as me blaming you in anyway as I know that you are absolutely trying to help me. I'm just looking for clarity:

In point 5 of your post you seem to be suggesting what I already feared. That the Tado V3+ Kit can't work as a three channel programmer and only works as a two channel one (please reference the below pasted chat from Tado support also confirming this. This goes against what I think you initially indicated and also what Tado support have told me via Screwfix twice now. I'm confused.
In point 8 you are now suggesting that I change what I have purchased to the EU version and two wired thermostats, which possibly then overrides point 5 and does allow me to manage all three channels still?

What is becoming clear is that there is no easy way to do this. What I mean by easy is that it's likely beyond my experience and skillset (i.e. I need to get an electrician involved) and possibly even requires me to buy new devices (I've already purchased the other ones, opened them and registered them because Tado told me it would work via Screwfix. Question - would the Drayton Wiser 3 Channel kit be easier as they make it sound as if it is just a straight replacement of the existing programmer (the Timeguard) and the two wired thermostats. The only reason I didn't buy the Drayton Wiser in the first place was that it's more expensive and that I like the look of the Tado.

The other simple route that I assume I could do would be to either just replace the two existing wired thermostats with Tado ones and set the Timeguard programmer to always be on (the issue with that being wasted gas from heating the relay pipes?).

Response from Tado support after I messaged them last week:

"Hello,Thank you for contacting us.From the information you provided I understand you have a triple channel programmer.This programmer controls two heating zones and one hot water zone. However, the tado° Wireless Receiver is a dual relay programmer and controls one heating zone and one hot water zone only.So, your programmer is incompatible with tado° and our devices can’t directly replace it nor can we provide wiring instructions.However, there are two possible options:1. You can replace your current wired room thermostats with our wired Smart Thermostats. For that, you will need one Wired Smart Thermostat Starter kit + one additional Smart Thermostat. Your triple channel programmer should be set to always on so the Smart Thermostats can control the individual heating zones.or2. You can ask your local professional installer to rewire your heating system so you can control both your hot water and your two heating zones with tadoº. Keep in mind we don’t provide installation instructions for wiring the tadoº Wireless receiver in this case, but your electrician may use our professional manuals for assistance.Thank you for your understanding,Kind regards,"

policywonk · November 22

@C0mbat. This may help. Hopefully stress you less.
1. TADO Support's idea to leave the existing programmer in place is a good one. By setting it all to run non stop, the decision to remove the programmer can be put off until after winter and then all you have to do is trace its original wires and bridge, channel for channel, Live to Switched Live. This effectively removes that thread of difficulty. I made the mistake of trying to clean up the old stuff before fitting the new. Their idea is easier. My bad. With their updated approach you should be able to complete the changes in 1-2 hours.
2. Your alternative idea, to use Wiser, is valid if Wiser can handle your ebus on the boiler. Problem is I've never used that brand in digital mode. We have it at one of our facilities and it is solid stuff in relay mode. There is someone, I believe it is @hugbilly, who has the experience to comment. Will search and come back.
3.Worcester Greenstar 38CDi Classic can run in digital mode, thus more efficiently. To operate both CH and HW you will need an EU wireless receiver if you wish to draw upon that efficiency gain, which is real. However, if you prefer to keep a UK extension kit that's your call. It will work though not as efficiently. Now if you need to return it all to Screwfix, you may not be aware but Screwfix do provide a one year return, no quibbles, offer. If you've thrown away the boxes that might irritate them a little but ask for the manager and explain that the advice you were initally given by Tado was not correct for this boiler. Give them a printout of the emails. They will listen and usually they will accept the swap.
4. Now if the support team dont come back with enough information for you to install it yourself (which I'd be surprised at), come back here and we will help with the rest. In the meantime, this information is relevant in helping you think:
* https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/professional/support/literature/greenstar-cdi-classic-combi-installation-instructions
* Look at page 29, and search for connector ST19 on your boiler. This will help you identify where it fits to bring the EBUS feature of your boiler into play.

Let us know.

wateroakley · November 22

Hello @C0mbat Concurring with @policywonk for the alternative of leaving the old programmer in place and simply replacing two thermostats. Two options a) or b):

a) A UK wireless starter kit to replace one thermostat with the wireless receiver for CH1 and a wired thermostat for CH2. The old programmer is set as 24/7 for CH1 and CH2. Use the old programmer for timing the HW.
b) A wired starter kit to replace the old thermostat for CH1 and a second wired thermostat to replace the old thermostat for CH2. The old programmer is set as 24/7 for CH. Use the old programmer for timing the HW.

Let us know what you decide.

HTH

Misunderstanding on screwfix.co.uk - What next?

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