Support more than 10 rooms and 25 devices
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Just setting up a tado today. There is still a 10 room limit (call for heat). You can now configure everything yourself in app.
Anyone used 2 smart thermostats (i.e. zone contollers)? Does that mean you get 20 rooms, 10 per controller? If so, what's stopping us wiring the zone controllers in parallel to the boiler? Obviously doesn't help if you have the extension kit without rework of the mount.
Have put a call into support (but found them not as helpful as they used to be when I first brought my first tado in 2017. For starters no phone number now :( )
thanks
Ed
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Hi All,
As some of you have noticed, we are working on settings that allow you to configure rooms yourself and choose which 10 rooms should be able to call for heat from the main circuit driver.
From our experience, there are very few situations where you need more than 10 rooms to be able to call for heating since if you have 10 rooms able to call for heating, the boiler will be on enough of the time to also provide all rooms that can only control their own radiator (independent rooms) with hot water.
The 10 room limit is baked deep into the firmware, and there is little to no chance we will address it with the current hardware generation.
We will take the feedback into account when/if there is ever a new hardware platform designed.
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@Jurian thank you for the update - good to know where we stand.
I always thought that the 10 room limit was a major problem, but having thought about it since these settings became available, you are correct - the boiler is on enough to satisfy the less used rooms - I have ended up with 8 out of 13 rooms calling for heat, and it works perfectly.
One suggestion - make it clear in the heating zone settings that a maximum of 10 rooms is allowed?1 -
@Jurian For me the max 10 is not good.
We have 13 trv's and would really like all individual. We purchased Tado for this very reason. If I am working all day at home alone I only need one room heated.. currently that room is outside of my 10 limit.
Using the app we adjust our heating regularly depending on our daily diary.
We have scenarios where we need each and every trv to independently call for heat.0 -
@samd I could set our office to be one of the ten, but that would mean choosing which of the current trv's able to call for heat I would need to disable doing so.
Frustrating.. I'll be constantly swapping which can and which cannot. Not what I expected when I brought into the Tado system.1 -
@Jurian I can't be sure, but I think that if the independent rooms valves are open, then they show in the heating activity graph as part of the total heating time, even though the boiler might not be running as no other room is calling for heat. The same applies to the individual room graph.
If I'm correct, can this be amended as it gives a false picture?0 -
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@johnbur @GrayDav4276 I do not see this issue as critical at the moment, please keep in mind that the room graph is also meant for people who have no boiler control at all. For example, when you just have Smart Radiator Thermostats and you are on district or communal heating.
If you feel strongly about it, please open a new feature request for that specific issue since it is different from the one discussed in this thread.
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@samd We have more than 9 other Tado trv's and depending on the situation want different rooms on at different times. There is not really one room as such that would always be on, except perhaps the bathroom.. but we may want that at a very different heat.
I brought Tado assuming, wrongly it seems that all Tado trv's would call for heat as and when required. The option to do this very much suited the workings of our house.
I'm really quite disappointed this isn't the case.
@Jurian Is this closed now, is the max of ten not a topic for conversation?0 -
@Ben_UK You said I brought Tado assuming, wrongly it seems that all Tado trv's would call for heat as and when required.
Your assumption was spot on - that is exactly what they do. There are 2 modes under which tado works. One is where the boiler-controlling Wall stat has to be calling for heat in order for the tado trvs to get heat AND the other is where every tado device can call and get heat regardless of the status of the wall stat.
You need to ask support at tado.com on the chatline to change yours over - it's a 2 minute job.
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@samd @Ben_UK We recently introduced a feature where you can choose yourself if a room with Smart Radiators should be able to call for heating from a smart thermostat/Extension Kit/Wireless Receiver.
Go to my.tado.com
Go to settings
Go to rooms/devices
Click on the room names
Now you can see if that room is attached to a heat source controller OR if the room is fully independent (only controls its own thing, and does not send a heat request)
For the current hardware generation, there is a very small chance that we will increase the limit of 10 rooms calling for heating. The reason is this:
From our experience, there are very few situations where you need more than 10 rooms to be able to call for heating since if you have 10 rooms able to call for heating, the boiler will be on enough of the time to also provide all rooms that can only control their own radiator (independent rooms) with hot water.
So even a room that can't call for heating (independent room), will eventually be heated as soon as one of the 10 rooms calls for heat.
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@Jurian is what @samd has written above correct? He seems to suggest there is an option for more than 10 trv's to call for heat??
I am new to Tado, and have only seen the option to choose the controller.. I didn't know this is a new thing.
However I have found choosing which Tado trv's can and cannot call for heat frustrating and have found myself swapping them. I guess I fall into the 'very small situations' group? In my opinion it could also be subtitled the 'very frustrated and disappointed group'.
I brought my Tado kit and didn't fit it straight away (due to an unexpected death in the family), had I fitted it immediately and had I realised this limitation I would have sent it back.. but unfortunately I have kept it too long to be able to do so.
Having a room that "will eventually be heated as soon as one of the 10 rooms calls for heat" just isn't good enough.0 -
- The limitation of 10 applies to rooms not TRVs
- You can have a 10 rooms, each with 2 TRVs and each room can switch on the boiler when needed, so that is 20+ TRVs asking for heat.
- Link any room to the boiler in the app if you expect to occupy the room separately without the rest of the house, ie a home office where everything else is in the house is off during the day.
On this basis 10 goes quite a way, most people on conventional heating systems and many with Nest only have 1 or 2 zones.
Cheers.
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@Pete
Thanks, but yes I was aware of this. If this is not going to be changed and the limit of 10 upped I will be forced to add trv's together.. I already have with the two in our hall.
Our use of our house and our rooms is very fluid. Some rooms aren't used for days and days, but one or two might be.. and at different times of the days and short notice. We have three floors and with the above it's quite frustrating choosing which trv's to group, or choosing which trv's to be 'independat' only receiving heat when other trv's (in the magic 10) call for heat.
I'm glad the limitation has no negative affect for you.. sadly it does for us.0 -
@Jurian
I was aware of the option to group trv's, and as mentioned above we have done so.
However, and not wanting to repeat my reply to @Pete this doesn't work for us as we would really like from a smart heating system. Please see my reply above briefly explain why.
Is there not a plan to look at the 10 limit? I'm sure I've read online individual cases where the limit has been increased??
I'd very much like to trial it for you.. and would like to know what (if any) knock on factors it might cause?0 -
@Ben_UK not sure if you have your own boiler or a district heating system to supply the heat. If it is a boiler in your own home do you know what the minimum power output is? A typical gas boiler will have a minimum output of 5KW. For the boiler to operate efficiently you need to match the heating load to the boiler output, which normally means having multiple radiators in circuit at the same time. With the average radiator having a rating of 1-1.5KW it will be a mis-matched load when working in a single circuit. It will work, but you’ll pay extra money for the luxury of scheduling every single radiator.
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@samd Why? We have a Tado trv in every room bar one where the rad currently has not got a trv fitted. I will be swapping that in the spring when we're not reliant on the heating. We have the Extension Kit fitted and have left our existing thermostat in place. Our Tado smart thermostat is being used to call for heat on this one rad we have without the Tado trv (obviously this rad gets heated whenever any other trv called for heat and fires up the boiler).
@GrilledCheese2
Our own boiler. The likelihood that only one radiator is on at a time is quite slim, however it is a possibility and also as mentioned previously different rooms at different times need different heating.. and those rooms may change unexpectedly.
A scenario.. perhaps we would like to push heat to a currently cold room quickly when perhaps all our other radiators have met their temp setting, so they no longer need to be on constantly, maybe just occasionally to top-up heat.
Therefore the cold room (which in this case we will say is not part of the 10 group but instead is an 'independant room') will not get adequate heat.. just heated as and when another rad in the house may require a little. Not really what I had hoped for when buying into a smart system.0 -
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Hi @GrayDav4276
At present we only have 10 rooms; Utility, kitchen, dining room, sitting room, bathroom, 4 bedrooms and a dressing room, plus our hallway and two landings spread over three floors.
There is a Tado trv in all those rooms except the sitting room where we do not have a normal trv fitted at present. There is also two rads in the downstairs hall and one on the third floor landing, so 13 rads in total.
I will be swapping the sitting room standard valve to a Tado trv in the spring.
We have the Tado Extension Kit controlling our system. Our smart thermostat is in the sitting room as there is no trv, plus the rad is behind a sofa so I'd prefer to use the smart thermostat to control the heat in there even once I've got the Tado trv fitted so we've a more reliable and even room temp. We are happy to continue using the manual Honeywell wall thermostat for the time being.
Our third floor is currently rarely used. It has a landing and two bedrooms.. so that's three additional trv's. Two of these are our independent rooms. Either of these rooms can be used at anytime, at short notice.
Our heating system needs a total overhaul. We have sludge in the system and the pump is tired. We didn't realise how bad it's got till this winter, I will be cleaning it through and fitting a new pump in the spring.
Hence especially at the moment we are very choosey as to where we push heat.. we use the app and alter rooms regularly depending on the day and our diary.
However even once our heating is tiptop we will still have the scenario I mentioned in a previous post. Our third floor will be on very low (if even on at all) as it's not being consistently used. It could be anytime during the day when we choose we may use one of the third floor rooms and therefore we'd want to push heat to it. As I mentioned before if all other trv's have got to temp when we use the app to turn up the heat in either top floor bedroom it will only get heat if and when one of the others downstairs calls for heat.
We have also looked at grouping rads together. I have done so in the hall but none of our other rooms really work well for us to be grouped together... I have considered all of them, our desired schedules and how it could work. We have individual schedules in each and every room.. with different temps set at different times, no two rooms match.
Also, ideally we are thinking of extending in the next year or two, we'd also like a rad in a separate toilet where there isn't one at present and are considering knocking through to an outbuilding.. another room we'd want to add a rad into, I cannot see how Tado will work as we'd expected at present.. never mind if we add 3 or 4 more Tado trv's to be radiators.
Sorry for the wake, hope the above helps.1 -
Hi @Ben_UK
That’s a useful overview, fundamentally you are right and the technical limitations you’ve identified can lead to the problems you describe.
However, based on the thorough outline you’ve provided, your property and usage doesn’t appear particularly unusual. Therefore the 10 room limit is unlikely to cause you an actual practical problem.
For starters there is no need for subservient rooms to be able to call for the boiler directly. Bathroom, toilet, utility, etc should definitely not be chosen as part of the 10. These rooms are extremely unlikely to be used without other rooms in the house already being on.
Furthermore, top floor bedrooms will only be used at same time as the top hall so connect the top hall to the boiler, leave one or both of the bedrooms as subservient.
Most houses with regular heating have a single thermostat in the hall. Once the hall is satisfied the rest of the house switches off. This worked well for decades without too much trouble except when people put the stat in the same room as another heat source (like with a log burner).
Also, your fear about rooms not heating once the primary rooms are satisfied is technically correct but in reality is unlikely to pose a problem. Heating will switch on an off all day and most roofs heat up reasonably evenly. If they don’t you can throttle back water flow (and heat) to the fastest heating rooms by making small adjustments to the lock shield on the radiator. Additionally you can be careful to link the slowest (rather than the fastest) heating rooms to call the boiler.
After you live with it for a while, I think you’ll work out the best way of working and hopefully your fears will not materialise in any genuinely problematic way.
Good luck, hope it works out!
Cheers.
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Interesting thread, I'm new to Tado (just escaped from Hive) and what strikes me are the similarities in the communities - I'll create a separate thread for this later).
I have 10 rooms (zones) declared (I wasn't aware of the limitation, this is luck not judgement) and a further 3 rooms that have no Tado control. These three additional rooms are the bathrooms (en-suite and house). The reason I have no Tado is simple; there is no practical need at all for Tado to control a bathroom - I'll explain:
Bathrooms have no use pattern, unlike the rest of the living spaces. I know when people are going to be using the kitchen, the home office, the lounge and the bedrooms, etc but bathroom use is totally random. Instead, I use regular wax TRVs in two of these rooms with the house bathroom acting as the heat dump and path of last resort (just manually set as permanently on using manual controls), and (as cited elsewhere in this thread) I rely on the fact that the boiler is running to heat at least some part of the house to keep the bathrooms pleasantly warmed. It is supremely wasteful to demand heat for a bathroom (IMHO), especially when a large and complex house is likely to mean that the boiler is on most of the day at least. One other thing to note is that I didn't bother installing a radiator in the utility room - the chest freezer keeps the chill out and the tumble dryer also contributes to background heat, but since this is another room with unpredictable use cycles, people are unlikely to be removing clothing and generally don't spend long performing tasks there, I would probably have treated it in the same way as the bathrooms.
The point is that since modern boilers modulate, there is less need for the control system to demand heat in a smart way, the boiler itself monitors the output (feed) water temp and drops the gas demand to maintain a reasonably constant feed temperature. When you have lots of heat demand from the house, then you will use more gas, but a heating system that demands for 18 hours a day isn't necessarily a problem (or excessively fuel hungry) as long as the heat demand in each room is being properly managed to maintain the right kind of heat levels appropriate to occupation and use.
So going back to my own installation, the bathrooms are heated opportunistically, and since I run the water heating for my two separate water stores early in the day (0400hrs) so that the effort to raise the temperature of the tanks is the only real work being done by the boiler at that time, water heating is faster and the bathrooms warm early as a by-product. Some of the bedrooms also begin their "early start" heating in the later part of the water heating period, and the main living spaces follow shortly after. This cascade of demands should absolutely be enabling the boiler to modulate and therefore achieve full efficiency.
For the record, I have currently got 6 wireless thermostats for the downstairs living space, and I am using just the SRVs for each of the bedrooms and the landing - this seems to be sufficient since bedroom heating is more about "warm when I get up and warm when I go to bed" than the kind of comfort management needed in zones where you spend extended amounts of time sitting around (lounge, office etc).
All of that said, arbitrary functional limits in modern software development suggests poor design methodologies and "Hicksville" thinking. Yes, I get the response from @Jurian that the current configuration is considered by Tado to be sufficient, yet plainly it isn't. The crux of this is that Tado (and Hive and conceivably the rest of the domestic players in this space) are all guilty of assumption, and for no really good reason. Saying that the people in the forum are outliers and not representative of the bulk of customers who do fit in the Tado "box" is not acceptable.
Using cloud platforms to host the real "thinking" part of this should mean that the hardware costs fall and the service costs rise. This is better for cashflow, and encourages investment since a monthly service fee paid on a direct debit is easier for everyone to swallow than a £300+ up-front investment. Once your main revenues come from service stream, then it becomes possible to create a tiered cost, based on number of devices and number of zones, all of which means that people who really do need more than 10 zones pay more for them than someone who needs only one or two zones. Since the computing power at the public cloud side of this increases with more work demand, so does the public cloud cost - a problem when you make a single cash sale, much less of a problem when you move your charging model to match your cost model. Aside from the need to have physical wireless extenders in larger properties, there should be no blockers to large scale installations.Apart from anything else, if you instance every customer tenant as capable of supporting 10 zones and 25 devices, when most users need no more than 10 devices and 3 zones, you're over-provisioning and spending cash unnecessarily. Much better to instance on demand and charge for that demand in every respect.
well, my first post turned into a bit of an essay!
If you're still reading, thank you :)
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I'm pleased to see the 10 limit is deemed fine for others, though this is then used by Tado and @Jurian it seems.
However as @GrayDav4276 started above each installation is individual and what works for you may not for another.
Simply put the limit of 10 does not work for me, and had I known about it I would have purchased an alternative system.
I can only guess that upping the limit would be seen as a possibility of putting added pressure on Tado's servers?
I have kept my original trv's, ch programmer etc in case we move in the short term but now think if we do I will leave the Tado system here and look at a new system for our new home.0 -
@Ben_UK The 10 rooms calling for heating is a firmware thing. When you move to a new house, please check our competitors very carefully. I am not sure which ones even offer the option of a call for heating and for how many rooms. This is not easy to find out.
It might be that tado, even with the 10 room limit, is still the best option out there.
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