Support current and more recent Vaillant eBus controllers
Comments
-
@Ajh I am unsure, sorry!
@scgf yes confusing indeed. As you said the HW tile on the app seems to be pointless yet I need to make sure it's ticked when configured otherwise no HW!1 -
@RV93 Given you have the same boiler as me and I have HW de-selected on the thermostat it is indeed most odd! Anyway, that's a very minor annoyance - you have a tile you don't need to touch. I love the way Tado modulates the boiler when connected to the eBus. My previous Vaillant was 20 years old and Tado just switched it on or off depending on the temperature of the room. To have that incremental control is perfect. Enjoy!
1 -
Hi,
This is not tado-related, however a question on eBus itself. I am going to integrate an eBus gas boiler in to my homeassistant system. I see the boiler only has a relay input for ON/OFF control, yet manufacturer (Protherm) states eBus is supported.
Can anyone explain the eBus itself, to an engineer? Is it PWM, analog, or anything else? What are the signal levels?
So frustrating when manufacturers give absolutely no information on this. Also for outside temperature sensor...0 -
The following article should get you started. As you will see it is typically a 2 wire 24V circuit with digital signals overlaid on top. OpenTherm and the various proprietary eBus implementations use the same wiring and voltages but with different command sets.
1 -
@jelockwood thanks lot. I was expecting something much simpler, however this is somewhat similar to overcomplicated modbus.
The most troublesome part is that this only specifies a rather low level, and everyone seems to send proprietary information over it. Now I understand where the "reverse engineering" part comes from.
0 -
OpenTherm uses the same physical link and it is an 'open' standard, however all the eBus providers have made theirs proprietary. Tado say functionality-wise eBus is better than OpenTherm. (OpenTherm was originally developed by Honeywell.)
As far as I am aware Tado is the only commercial smart home product that has managed/bothered to reverse engineer eBus as used by Vaillant and Worcester Bosch. Nest, Netatmo, Drayton, etc. all only support OpenTherm. There are various OpenTherm boilers on the market, even here in the UK.
Ironically, in the Netherlands there is apparently a legal requirement that OpenTherm be used so Vaillant and Worcester Bosch include and use converter modules to translate their internal eBus to standard OpenTherm. It is in theory possible to buy these modules and fit them here in the UK however despite being genuine manufacturer parts this will invalidate a UK warranty if discovered.
2 -
An explanation for my confusion over the VR65/66. I had no idea what this was but on digging around n the internet I can see that it is a control box to integrate various aspects of a heating system. I do not have this box. My Tado extension is wired directly to my Vaillant ecoTEC Pro 28. The + & - connections on the boiler eBus connect to the + & - connections on the right (24v) side of the Tado extension backplate. The Tado thermostat is configured to use D07 (Vaillant eBus) and hot water is switched off. To fine-tune my heating needs I have thermostatic radiator valves fitted. Once set I have not needed to change the settings on these at all.
Two weeks on and my Tado is behaving impeccably. It modulates perfectly - a need for a small temperature increase is met by the boiler heating at a lower temperature to meet that need. At any time my home is at pretty much the exact temperature I asked for in the schedule.
If your needs are straightforward like mine Tado will work with the eBus on a new Vaillant boiler.
4 -
I have a Vaillant Eco Tec 831 plus which has a Vaillant VRC700 STILL connected. I read in an earlier post that there will be conflict between Tado getting weather data from the internet vs local data from the Vaillant VRC700. I would therefore like to disconnect the Vaillant VRC700.Presumably rather then disconnect boiler side i could just go outside and terminate the wires going into the Vaillant VRC700 sensor?
0 -
i have just posted this and wondered if anyone could help
0 -
I have just found this within the VR66 manual, does this mean it meets the VR65 functionality that has been raised in this thread
0 -
Not directly relevant to the above post, however I just wanted to call out that hot water does work on some Vaillant combis. It works on my Ecotec Plus 938 being fully configurable. It’s even able to override some of the Vaillant settings that are supposedly not within the standard parameters (for example allowing 35oC when comfort mode is on - minimum setting is supposed to be 55oC, even in the boilers installer menu).1
-
Hi @gary333
I've been trying to connect my Tado Extension Kit and smart thermostat to my 938 too. Below is what my boiler looked like when I opened it up:
I connected the + and - on the BUS terminals of the boiler to the corresponding terminals in the extension kit. However, when I perform any changes in the Tado app, nothing seems to happen. Do I need to change any of the jumpers present above?
The boiler was fitted in Summer 2020, how old is yours? Perhaps I'm affected by the VR66 mentioned in this thread.
0 -
It can take several minutes for the boiler to react. The VR65/66 is a box which is used to connect various bits of a heating system together. If you’re connecting the Tado extension directly to the boiler you don’t have a VR unit. What is the firmware version of your extension box? Have you correctly configured your thermostat for D07 (Vaillant eBUS)? Is the boiler itself set to ‘always on’?1
-
@scgf Thanks.
Extension Kit is firmware 81.1. I have configured D07 in the installer menu on the thermostat. What do you mean by setting the boiler to always on? Do I have to set the heating to "on" within the built-in menu of the boiler?
On a related note, the hot water controls appear within my Tado app, but changing the hot water temperature on the app doesn't seem to change the displayed temperature on the boiler. I will check all my wiring again tomorrow.
0 -
Your extension kit firmware is fine. The boiler itself needs to be set to permanently on, bypassing any boiler timer controller, so that Tado can take over control of the schedule. My boiler has no controls fitted at all since my intention was to use Tado from the outset. I'm not talking about the boiler menus, just any fitted controllers. Do you have any other time controllers fitted to your boiler?
Maybe you should contact Tado support at this stage - my Vaillant worked with Tado straight away, but is a simpler ecoTEC Pro 28 with no hot water tank. I do know that my installer and I were waiting for around 5 minutes for the boiler to implement Tado's first call for heat. My installer hadn't installed a Tado system before and he couldn't believe that it actually worked with the Vaillant eBUS. Apparently neither Hive nor Nest are able to. He is a Vaillant Advance installer and had always been told that only Vaillant controllers were able to interface with a Vaillant eBUS.
Cross-referencing with other posts where there is the same circuit board it looks like your jumpers are correct, but you appear to have something connected to the 230v terminals on the right side of the board. Where does that cable go?
1 -
Just noticed this post regarding the 938.
Did you manage to get it sorted? The bridge is in the 24V RT which is correct, eBUS +&- to +&- on the extension is correct. Is the 230v supply straight to a socket or a fused connection, or is it going to some older controls?
The boiler screen options don't change when Tado is in use if this is what you mean. Obviously the boiler should fire though, are you not getting the boiler firing for central heating?
0 -
I'd like to provide another reference point:
- Vaillant EcoTec Plus 831 Combi boiler (bought and installed in 2009)
- Vaillant Digital Weather Compensator VRC 430 (with external temp sensor wired to the boiler)
- tado Wired Smart Thermostat V3+ (Firmware: 86.1)
tado thermostat is wired to eBus + and - terminals in the boiler as per instructions from page 11 to 19 (Wiring: Vaillant eBus).
My results as of today (23/6/21):
- It works without VRC 430 on mode D07.
- It works with VRC 430 controller installed at the boiler on mode D05. The Vaillant controller shows that remote control is present, but the temperature is shown as 21˚ (not 20˚ set at the thermostat, or 23˚ air temperature).
The software version page shows the tado thermostat recognised as the Vaillant VR81 remote control unit.
I switched from (1) to (2) this morning because I really like the modulating control by VRC 430. It keeps the target flow temperature low (30–45˚, we're in the South of England) and the radiators not too hot when the heating is on. As a result, the air feels less stuffy. I removed the VRC 430 yesterday and started with (1). It works but when I called for heat (set to max 25˚), the target flow temp at the boiler is set at 68˚ (if I remember correctly), making the radiators too hot to touch. With (2), the target flow temp is 54˚. It is still too high (for the 16˚ outdoor temp as reported by the Vaillant sensor), I think, but not as high as with (1).
I would love to hear advice on whether (1) or (2) is preferable. I have absolutely no idea how VRC 430 controls the boiler in tandem with the tado thermostat seen as a VR81 unit.
In any case, I hope the above will help someone thinking of getting the tado thermostat for their Vaillant boilers.
3 -
Very useful, I’m about to install the Tado with a similar setup but a vrc470. Quick question what did you do with your timer programs with setup 2 and D05, if any on the VRC430. I’m assuming with setup 2, your 430 controls the hot water so you’d need a HW schedule. Thanks0
-
I don't have a HW program as I'm using a combi boiler. The Tado controller tells VRC 430 that the heating is either "off" or "manual" (on). When it's on, the required temperature is set to whatever the temperature requested a radiator valve at the time.
It's not smooth sailing though. I installed the tado system in the summer and now the heating is required more often. Over the last month, my boiler was regularly throwing up F.61 errors (a gas valve error) and required a reset. My plumber replaced the circuit board and, later, the gas valve of the boiler but the issue did not go away. Finally, with nothing else to try, he suggested I remove the VRC 430, which I did. It did help, I now see F.61 errors only every two days or so. I strongly suspect that the tado controller is causing those but have no proof.
I am now thinking of disconnecting tado for a while and using just the VRC 430 controller to see if the issue still persists. However, I have not managed to get round to it yet.
0 -
Hey guys,
I'm thinking about replacing my current wired on/off thermostat Salus 091flv2 with Tado Wireless Starter Kit. My current setup is electric Protherm Ray 12KE/14EU (purchased 03/2021) with underfloor heating. No external tank, no hot water preparing. eBUS connector is directly on mainboard.
Do you think I will be lucky to run all eBUS features out of the box?
0 -
So Tado delivered, connected to boiler via eBUS interface. Everything seems to be working - heating, modulation etc. So far so good.🙂
1 -
Just want to thank everyone on this thread. Took the plunge and sourced an old vr65 and the older ebus extension kit for my ecotec 630. All working, heating modulating nicely. Support are bloody useless and say it can't be done which is annoying, a little less rigidity from support and maybe some additional honesty about the hacks they have built in would be great.0
-
A tip for anyone trying to get it working is the d.09 vaillant command shows you the flow temp being requested to the boiler. You can see what tado and the vr65 are asking for this way0
-
I have already ordered a V3+ wired kit (and TRV's) as I thought it would work trouble free to replace a wired stat with a smart one, but as I read on, it seems a bit more involved and nuanced!
I'm in the UK and it will be installed on a 2010 Vaillant ecoTEC plus 831 (with recent circuit board replacement, if that matters at all).
I am replacing a simple battery powered wired digital stat that has 3 wires at the back plate. Not opened the boiler panel yet to confirm the connection but from the Vaillant manual (P27) it looks likely to be terminals 3, 4, 5. The note says do not use 7, 8, 9 in the UK!
https://www.vaillant.co.uk/downloads/z/ecotec/ecotec-installation-servicing-2-2005-261445.pdf
From above thread it sounds like I can benefit from ebus connection giving better control of the boiler and modulation instead of switched, if I understand right. This thread appears to back it up;
https://tado.vanillacommunities.com/en-gb/discussion/8256/vaillant-ecotec-831-plus-install
So far I have figured out I need to;
- disconnect the 3 wires from the stat and boiler (after isolating power and taking photos!)
- connect two wires to the ebus +/- on the boiler
- connect these to the +/- respectively on the Tado back plate
- ignore the 3rd wire (and terminate safely to prevent a short)
- Bridge the burner connections on the boiler (3 & 4 from the manual) to ensure boiler will fire and Tado can control it.
- Install bridge, pair it all up and set install option to D07
Hopefully that's it, it works and I don't need to send it back!
When working, modulation plus smart settings and TRV's will add up to better comfort and decent savings!
Failing all that I assume I can fall back to the 'analogue' connection, page 6 on the below, and benefit from remote switching and TRV control but no modulation?
https://www.tado.com/start/manuals/st/Wired%20Smart%20Thermostat%20Manual.pdf
0 -
Update - there are 3 wires at the stat but only 2 at the boiler across 3 & 4, so that makes things easier. 3rd wire is a red herring.
I'm going to move these to the bus connection, bridge 3 &4 and test.
0 -
Hi All,
This is the thread I needed 6 months ago!
I currently have a Vaillant 630 with a separate hot water tank. I have an extension kit wired in relay to control both CH and HW using 240v.
I cannot see a VR65/66 module. Looking at Google I am assuming this would be a box outside of the boiler?
Can I wire my extension kit into the EBUS controller in the boiler and control the CH and also the heating of the water tank?
Thanks
Dan0 -
@Dc89 , I have the same problem and after a lot of reading and miscommunication from Tado support have concluded/learned that if you wire the extension kit eBus to the boiler and change the Tado thermostat setting to D07 (digital eBus) then your system will stop working altogether. This I tried and confirmed. . This is because Tado cannot control zone valves on its own. You would need a VR65 box to control the HW and CH zone valves and then have the eBus connected from EK to VR65 to Boiler to get it all working together. This is what I am considering or alternatively I might just ditch Tado and buy the Vaillant vSmart which is guaranteed to work. This is because the EK is a discontinued product and it if ever failed then you could not get a replacement and would lose the eBus function I.e the EK replacement product is the wireless receiver and they have removed eBus from it!1
-
Yes I don't understand the logic behind what Tado have done with the Extension Kit. It looks like the new Wireless Kit as sold in the UK does not support OpenTherm or I believe eBus and hence only supports 'Call for Heat' aka Relay mode, but can do Hot Water control. It looks like the equivalent product sold in Europe can do OpenTherm and presumably eBus but might not support hot water control. (OpenTherm and eBus use the same wiring and are a similar but incompatible digital standard.)
OpenTherm is rarer in the UK because in the Netherlands boilers have to support OpenTherm. Here in the UK Vaillant and Worcester Bosch use instead their own proprietary incompatible eBus standards which 'allegedly' are superior standards. Vaillant like Worcester Bosch make and sell a module to convert their proprietary eBus to OpenTherm to make them OpenTherm compatible and only sell this in Europe, for Vaillant this is the VR33 module. If you use this in the UK Vaillant consider this to invalidate your warranty even though it is a genuine Vaillant part and even if you get an approved engineer to fit it.
Note: You could find an original Tado Extension Kit on eBay.
I am rather fed up with the state of heating controls in the UK. (I cannot really comment on other countries.) Some options e.g. Nest might have some advantages but do not support/include radiator smart TRVs. Some might do smart TRVs but not hot-water. Most only do OpenTherm and not eBus, and so on.
The transition to GSHP and ASHP is also causing upheaval. The smart heating control makers i.e. Nest, Tado, Netatmo, etc. are doing a very, very poor job at communicating how - if at all their products can be used with these. I get some impression that ASHP/GSHP basically could be considered equivalent to a 'combo' boiler and that they do not support OpenTherm or eBus.
Like Vaillant and Worcester Bosch ASHP/GSHP makers are trying to lock you in to using only their thermostats/controllers.
I do get the impression Honeywell are making a newer version of their EvoHome smart thermostat with built-in support for also controlling ASHP/GSHP and as Honeywell also do smart TRVs also supporting those. However Honeywell are poor at integrating with other smart home platforms. I am hoping that if makers adopt the new Matter smart home standard this might result in the holy grail of interoperability between these smart home systems.
0 -
No, I did the best thing and threw Tado in the bin. I replaced it with VR66/2 and vSmart. No issues since.
0
