Develop a "basic backup schedule" mode for when Tado outage or loss of internet

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  • Hi there,

    I know this will only happen for a few of you but could there be a function that allows the heating of all radiators via the boiler unit when there is a loss of connectivity to the servers.

    I know this is not a smart function and it would function like a traditional thermostat but for as a back up it would be perfect.

  • I completely agree with this. We lost internet at midnight in November when all heating was off and woke up to a freezing house.

    It would have been better to have had some heat.

    In my scenario:

    • If the Tado system was still communication internally but had just lost link to the schedule on the server it would have been better to heat the house to a fixed level e.g. 19 degrees. Even better would be to have a cache of the schedule.
    • If the whole system was down it would have been better do what a some old-school wireless systems do when the batteries are flat and turn the heating ON for 30 minutes then OFF for 30 minutes.
  • This morning I woke up to a chilly room and no hot water. My heating and hot water schedule was not started because the tado bridge lost its connection to the cloud in the night ('cloud' LED blinking and the mobile app showing 'No remote access').

    It is unacceptable that tado users lose control of their heating because Internet connection is not available. While tado can boast a high reliability of their servers, the same cannot be said of Internet service providers. When connectivity is lost, tado users should not be suffering any discomfort -- not to mention danger to life in the case of vulnerable people.

    Therefore I am proposing that a feature be added to tado that works in the following way.

    When Internet connection is lost, the last known schedule should be applied instead of everything shutting off. This ensures that tado users continue to receive heating and hot water whilst the problem is resolved at the Internet service provider, tado, or even the user's local Internet set-up.

    In addition to this morning's, I have had another bad experience when the tado bridge could not connect to the could and the boiler would not shut off until it was overridden on the extension kit. In my opinion, this is bad, as the kit is not necessarily installed in a very accessible place.

    I believe this idea is sound because when users do not get heating or hot water, they think first of their heating system and not of the Internet service. Therefore, tado should make its best effort to keep the system running even if the Interent is not available.

  • I experienced this twice. Once the boiler would not shut off because the bridge lost the Internet connection, and this morning when none of my schedules for heating and hot water was applied. This is unacceptable as it causes discomfort and possible threat to life (in the case of vulnerable people).

    The tado system should be smart enough to apply the last known schedules when the Internet goes down. The users can still override through the thermostat module or the extension kit if they so wish, but the tado system should make its best effort to keep the system running.

    I have posted a proposal at https://tado.vanillacommunities.com/en-gb/discussion/9392/store-schedule-locally-instead-of-relying-on-internet-connectivity#latest.

  • rafm5
    rafm5 | Moderator

    Tado is heavily relaying on internet, this is the way it is designed. This has been recently explained by one of Tado's Tech rep in another topic.

    If you are part of Apple HomeKit Tado will work, but this is more a workaround rather solution. I am confident saying that this will not change unless Tado will change their entire ecosystem.

    If I was you I would have looked first at the root source of your issue - why the internet connection is down and your ISP.

  • @rafm5

    I can't agree with the sentiment. "As designed" is nothing more than that, and isn't a real-world answer. Reliance, for local backup purposes, on one proprietary brand (Apple) isn't an answer, either.

    This will indeed not change unless Tado acknowledge and address it. However changing "the entire ecosystem" seems to overstate what I see as something arguably more simple.

    1: Timekeeping, for this purpose, isn't critical to the millisecond. Even accuracy only within a few minutes per year would be more than enough

    2: Standalone electronic "clocks" (as found in conventional boiler timers, computers, telephones, and all manner of other devices) cost a pittance.

    3: The amount of data needed to store a daily or even weekly on/off schedule for room and hot water events is miniscule.

    4: Therefore, it seems to me that something like a new version of the "bridge" with an onboard clock and some minimal onboard memory could happily manage the system (as long as it has power) using the last "smart schedule" settings applied to (and from) the server, until it receives an update. It seems equally trivial - only requiring the will do do it - that the same schedule might be updated in the Bridge by any device (particularly an Android app) that is locally connected to the same network (eg by WiFi).

    And as to your last point - as I have noted previously - aside from Tado themselves (which may be world-class), there are too many potential points of failure for total internet dependence to be a reliable approach: the local modem, router, telephone or fibre line, the ISP and all points in between can be randomly interrupted for a multitude of reasons and any of these render Tado no better than an on-off switch and a wired dumb thermostat.

  • rafm5
    rafm5 | Moderator

    Hi @RetsimLegin

    Luckily for me my heating system is very simple with two Tado° devices only (no TRVs) and very stable fibre connection, so so far all works well. I can imagine however that one day it will change and I will be in the same boat as people complaining today. I agree that all these smart devices and cloud bases services one day will give us a real headache.

  • ...or that someday the business model changes such that the cloud service (and thereby any and all automation) becomes a subscription only service. Unless you invest in an Apple.

  • That is insane and riduculous.
    This problem has been around for months and 280 user upvoted but Tado doesn't want to fix it. Many of us writes our story of waking up in chilly room and we relies on unstable system but nothing happens.
    @Jurian from Tado could you give us an update, please?
  • Colin_L
    Colin_L
    edited June 2021

    Hello Jurian,

    I would like to reply to this comment : https://community.tado.com/en-gb/discussion/comment/22789/#Comment_22789

    It is very understandable that it would be hard to try and retrofit new complex features in the Bridge. But, that doesn't mean that the "I want to be able to control my heating comfortably with an unreachable cloud" user story less important.

    There are multiple needs for that :

    • Yes, Internet outages do happen regularly, in a lot of countries, for multiple reasons, and they can span multiple days before it is fixed
    • This dependancy on Tado's cloud availability is a huge vendor lock-in. If Tado were to close its doors (I don't wish that for you), your millions of customers will find themselves left with a bunch of expensive bricks.

    So, that said, and taking into account one can't shoehorn that feature into the Bridge, what about developing and releasing a new, optional device allowing local control ? It would have to be on the LAN, could broadcast its existence using Bonjour for example. The Bridge could check for its presence with a simple firmware update, and take its orders from that device instead of the cloud. The apps could check for its presence and do the same. That device could interact with the cloud to share settings when Internet is up.

    Maybe it would be even better if that device had a tactile screen. It would allow people to control their heating in a centralized way without having to whip the smartphone.

    You would of course have to spend money developing that product. But that expense could be offset by a number of things : more sales from customers hesitant to spend money on something they don't know how long it will be functional ; cloud hosting budget reduction, as there would be less bridge/cloud traffic for the basic features (scheduling, monitoring metrics, ...).

    The Wiser system works like that.

    PS: to be really honest, I'd even be happy if the bridge actually replied on that open port 80 and I could send it orders via some sort of API. I'm quite sure this port is used for something during development, and tinkerers could put it to good use if it actually replied instead of just accepting connections.

    In short, a very inexpensive solution would be to open that port 80, document what we can send it, and let the opensource domotics community do the work.

  • several months have already passed and no feedback from Tado. i'm really sad noticing how Tado disregard its customers, really insane.

    meantime i've got a newborn, so you can imagine what could happen to a temperature sensitive child if internet is out and Tado could not keep the temperature.

    @Jurian from Tado where can we get any feedback on the timing on this issue, the most upvoted topic we're talking about?

  • rafm5
    rafm5 | Moderator
    edited September 2021

    @TypeR10

    Hi, I found plenty of issues with Tado° ecosystem and the iOS app myself, majority have been reported and surprisingly these are being (slowly) picked up by Tado° and resolved.

    Bear in mind these although are not critical issues or bugs!

    The problem is there is no communication from Tado° to users about firmware change logs, nothing. This is my personal feedback based on having this ‘smart’ device for 6 months.

    In my case I barely see any savings and I pointed this already to Tado° in my previous posts, showing that these promises are only marketing stories. I am however not going to use the Energy Saving Guarantee and return my devices because the whole system does work and do help and also works with Apple ecosystem. It isn’t about saving money, but the convenience.

  • By the way I have installed the Danfoss Link system in a home of a relative before I got to know Tado. Their heating schedule is managed entirely by the central controller (which is their bridge and has a touch screen interface). The software part of the Link system is really weak, but it is extraordinary robust and autark. Internet accessibility is possible for remote control but not necessary for operation or installation. I'm pretty sure the Tado bridge could as well easily manage the smart heating schedule once the internet connection gets lost. This would make it possible to use Tado also in houses with weak or only temporary internet connection.

    I think the total dependence on the Tado cloud is the weakest point of this system.

  • Absolutely support the request for some sort of backup option for when the internet is unavailable. I'm not tech savvy when it comes to the bridge so can't offer suggestions there, but at least somehow remembering last schedule. I was going to recommend Tado to my elderly parents, but then I woke up one morning to a freezing house because the internet connection had dropped out overnight and my router needed to be reset. Fortunately not a regular occurrence and on that occasion easily rectified, but the impact on elderly or vulnerable would be too great.
  • techypaul
    techypaul
    edited October 2021

    Making the bridge time aware and basically proxy the API, so it uses the local settings if the cloud API is down is not that difficult. Nothing else should need to be changed. Some APIs could also kick on faster (e.g. turning up the temp) without going to the cloud (fixing that other annoying issue of slow response).

    Even if it means a v4 piece of hardware, as a developer I find the argument 'it's by design' a little weak. v4 might even use PoE but that's another request :D

  • my biggest issue with loss of internet is that my hot water is controlled by tado so when i lose internet during the night i have no hot water in the morning for showers/baths. a simple backup policy in case server cant be found would be a massive step forward.

  • I second all the previous inputs on this sub-forum!

    Once again, it is also my biggest fear waking up to a freezing house or not being at home to assist my family when there is a electrical interruption or similar problems with the internet provider. Looking at outage-maps on Europe seems likely this will happen to all Tado -owners at some point during the life-span of an installation.

    This issue has me really put a set-back on me being able to recommend Tado to my friends and family as well, including the pricing policy enforced on v3+ owners (which certainly is another issue which I feel might be connected).

    murr

  • I have just joined this Tado site although I installed Tado over 2 years ago. Occasional outages but no real problems to date but with Governments adopting increasingly "green" policies the risk is now greater so some of the concerns here are farsighted and real. Does Tado administration ever monitor this site?

  • Flow
    Flow
    edited November 2021
    I’ve just found this thread, unfortunately about a week after investing in a whole home/multi room setup (and ripping out my old kit).

    @ Tado.
    I’m dismayed there is no basic/local scheduling to fall back on if connections somehow fail. Honestly I feel I’ve taken a backward step.. and don’t think it is acceptable to ‘run the risk’ of waking up with no water/heat - however remote that may be. This is a family house with youngsters.

    Apple HomeKit, as suggested earlier in this thread, seemed a good backup but I found it CANNOT control hot water. And heat control is very basic.

    I really would not have bought this if I knew external factors ‘totally out of my control’ could knock-out my Water/Heat. More fool me for not checking what I assumed was the most basic of basic features..
  • Ditsy
    Ditsy ✭✭✭

    @Flow, assuming you're UK based, Black Friday is 26th November and the sales often include this type of kit. I'd suggest returning any TRVs ASAP, and if you still have it available re-instating your old heating thermostat until you buy something else.

    We originally installed Tado devices in our house, and my father thought it was a great idea so followed suit. We subsequently came across problems at his place, and whilst they were recurring, Tado used to have great customer service and each time things got resolved quickly. Fast forward a couple of years and I recently spent an entire day on Tado webchat going back and forth over an issue at his place. I got so fed up I tried to phone in, only to hear a statement that phone calls are for emergencies only as they're moving to webchat. I find this a really worrying development.

    To give you some idea, I was providing plenty of information, and the webchat operative was pasting standard replies asking me whether I'd taken certain actions, clearly not having read the information I'd already provided. This didn't happen just once, but numerous times throughout an entire day that I struggled to get Tado to understand what was going on. At one point they demanded I take pictures of the rechargeable eneloop batteries we were using, despite my clearly informing them they were the exact ones their help page recommends as the only suitable for use. I ended up giving up since we were nearing the end of the day and his heating was working in the rooms he needed to use the following week (recovering at home after a major operation). I didn't want the seemingly random room dropout (a room that didn't have any issues for the 2 previous years) to jump to a room where it would be of more concern.

  • Flow
    Flow
    edited November 2021
    @Ditsy - reluctantly I think you are right. I’d previously ignored Hive and Nest systems as they didn’t have HomeKit compatibility. But now I know that Tado + HomeKit functionality is basic (and none-existent for hot water), it is not a feature worth keeping Tado for. Plus the ridiculous vulnerability discussed in this thread - I think I need to make a change.

    Note: A quick google search tells me Hive works to a pre-defined schedule if internet connection is lost. @Jurian please feed to your dev team.
  • Ditsy
    Ditsy ✭✭✭
    edited November 2021

    @Flow: we actually installed Hive in one of the households before switching to Tado. At the time Hive was really close to being a closed ecosystem. I'd suggest checking it's current integration options if that's important to you.

    If you're hoping to use TRVs, it doesn't look as if Google have any current intention of ever adding any.

    I'm currently interested in Wiser Drayton, but need to do some more research. Their help section indicates that a pre-programmed schedule will be maintained should internet be lost, and of course they offer a smart plug with a built-in range extender. They've also announced that it will be compatible with Matter. If HomeKit support is important to you, Wiser Drayton doesn't currently have that.

  • Flow
    Flow
    edited November 2021
    @Ditsy - thank you. Hive’s parent company is British Gas and looking at the Hive website the system looks very very similar to Tado. A smart hub, smart thermostat and smart TRV’s.
    Also the latest version does seem to be compatible with HomeKit!

    Cost is comparable to Tado across a multi-room house and importantly it seems it has been better designed *with appropriate redundancy* to fulfil its primary purpose, ie. switch heating and water on/off reliably (are you listening Tado??).
  • I find Tado's attitude around this and other issues to be appalling.

    That they've knowingly designed as system that is so prone to failure is shocking. That they have doubled down on it because they can't be bothered to fix their broken system is simply astounding.

    I've found that even when things reconnect, the thermostats don't commence the schedule upon reconnecting. Rather that happens when the next scheduled change occurs.

    The system as design and implemented is junk.

    Tado (@Jurian ) this is so incredibly bad. Please fix your broken system.

  • Yes everyone beware I had a TRV disconnect and when it came back online it did not pick up the schedule. It just came online and called 3 bars of heat until the next schedule kicked in 5 hours later. The schedule was set at 10 degrees but the TRV would not use this schedule until the next programmed schedule change. One hot radiator all night. This company is so environmentally unfriendly maybe they should attend COP 26
  • Flow
    Flow
    edited November 2021
    I would love to have been in the design meeting when it was agreed that it was too difficult to build a clock and calendar into their smart system.

    And that it was much better idea to ONLY receive triggers from a data centre somewhere. Who knows where this is located, who it’s outsourced to and what SLA’s they are held to?

    More crucially, when something goes wrong with any of the 3rd party internet services between the data centre and the house - the user could wake to find central heating & water cold, or worst, a prolonged outage and defunct system. No backup system or schedule. How smart is that?

    I don’t know if this is extremely poor design, business decision, or… negligence?

    Each leaves a very sour taste for Tado.
  • rafm5
    rafm5 | Moderator

    @Flow The easiest way of saving cost is by cutting corners / not implementing all features. Locally management thermostat sounds boring opposite to ‘smart’ and ‘cloud based’

    All those 'modern' subscription based services or cloud based systems have one major flaw. If you pull the plug they became a piece of junk. It's only a matter of time until something happens. Whether they use AWS, Microsoft Azure or Google Cloud it doesn’t matter.

    All you will get is "please know that our team is aware and monitoring the situation and hope to get the app back online soon. Please use a blanket instead" ;-)

  • Thanks @rafm5 but I don’t agree this is something we should accept. Nor should it be an inevitable feature of smart services.

    First and foremost, I expect reliability from my home heating system.. I can’t be alone here?

    As mentioned above, Hive (UK market leader and Tado competitor) seem to have recognised this, I quote: “Hive Active Heating - Your heating will continue to work. Until your broadband connection is restored you can control your heating manually from your thermostat. If your heating is in schedule mode it will continue to run to the schedule that you have set”.

    I don’t want to immediately jump ship here (especially after the recent expenditure of a full Tado home system), but to your point - sadly, I am starting to see where Tado’s priorities lay.