Develop a "basic backup schedule" mode for when Tado outage or loss of internet

2456712

Comments

  • Vertigo
    Vertigo ✭✭✭
    edited December 2019

     It would just make it easier to hack the system to run locally and bypass their cloud functionality entirely.

    Using homekit you can do exactly that, it works locally. Using homeassistant via homekit integration probably too, although I havent tested that thoroughly yet, because whenever I move a device from homekit API to tado API or vice versa, I have to contact tado support and beg them to 'activate' my device again, and wait 4 days. I got fed up enough with not owning my tado hardware that Ive ordered some zigbee TRVs and will probably move away from tado if I can find a taker for my hardware.

    They could even be delivered as part of the premium service and drive some extra revenue for them!

    Charging fees for functionality everyone would assume is included, is not a good long term business strategy. My guess is tado is not in the business of making hardware, nor selling software services to end users. They see us as the product, selling our data to energy companies:

    They quite literally sell diagnostics data on our boilers that they are not providing to the owners of these boilers. We dont even get a warning when our boiler fails.

    Anyway, getting OT, but if you wonder what those sofware devs are doing, that may be part of the answer.

  • samd
    samd ✭✭✭

    Algorithms are used by tado 360 to analyse things such as error codes, water pressure, and pump speeds. This can enable predictive maintenance to deliver simple actionable resolutions potentially before a bigger problem occurs.

    How can this be done when they have no access to the boiler?

  • opentherm can provide tado with a ton of info:

    https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/opentherm_gw/

  • samd
    samd ✭✭✭

    @Vertigo

    Wow so does that mean that the only connection Tado has to my boiler (NO and COMM wires) gives them the ability to collect boiler data other than when firing etc? If so can you enlighten this thickee!!

  • If you boiler doesnt support opentherm serial data protocol, then obviously, no.

  • samd
    samd ✭✭✭

    Worcester Bosch so I'm bullet proof!! Thanks

  • That may support EMS protocol, which tado can also read.

  • samd
    samd ✭✭✭

    Sugar! OK I give in!!😉

  • @Vertigo I have no problem with my data being sent to utility companies. I think "heating as a service" is certainly the future. But as you say, this should not come at the expense of personal access to this data.

    Although I agree that charging for expected features is not ideal, it's certainly a lot better than not including those features at all!

    But regardless of what their focus is, improving the user experience of their hardware should still be a priority, otherwise they will lose users and whatever they want to sell, they will not be able to. And some of the changes needed are just so, so simple. It is mind boggling.

  • yes This needs to be revised

  • @Will

     I have no problem with my data being sent to utility companies.

    You should. Its your data. Its up to you to give it to utility companies if you want to. Its not up to tado to collect it, withhold it from you (they are not providing end users with any diagnostic information, or even give them an alert if something fails) and instead give or sell it to third parties.

    I think "heating as a service" is certainly the future. 

    But tado isnt providing us with heating. All they do is collect our data and limit our control over our own hardware.

  • +1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Still no word from Tado on this? @Will I disagree that adding local functionality would make Tado easier to hack - a small schedule table in the hub firmware wouldn't make it easier or harder to reverse engineer but would remove a significant motivation to do so.

    More importantly, lack of a local schedule is probably costing Tado customers when they find out about this. I have recommended people against getting Tado, despite it being otherwise nearly perfect. It's also disappointing that their FAQ implies the system will work with no Internet, when without the Internet the system doesn't work as well as a basic programmable thermostat.
  • I have raised the same issue with no local schedule. TADO should review this issue as internet for everyone does fail every so often so there should be a fail safe approach. I assume the issue is no internal memory on the hub?
  • Sim
    Sim ✭✭

    Another +1 here for Local schedule. I've only had Tado 3 weeks and after reading these forums I'm thinking of getting shot of Tado and changing to Drayton Wiser as they have an option of setting local schedules.

  • Perhaps I’m not understanding correctly but doesn’t it already do this? https://support.tado.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207373166
  • I do a lot with home automation and have backups: An (few) small UPS if there is a power failure and a 4G connection on the internet router which is used then the normal fixed internet line is broken (some where along the "line").


    The 4G makes sure that Tado keeps working and is usable by the App. In case of power failure the heater does not work anymore, but Tado does...... (and rest of smart home also) for some time.

  • jcwacky
    jcwacky ✭✭✭

    @RedZombii No. You can manually control each device without an internet connection, but otherwise they just stay stuck on whatever mode they were in when the connection was lost, they do not follow any schedule. This means they stay off or on unless manually changed.

  • I would NEVER have bought my tado if I knew this "feature". An absolutely stupid behaviour of a smart device.

  • Today my internet failed (the connection to my ISP was disconnected due to an external fault). The internal WiFi is from a separate router and was working well. The internet bridge was connected to all tado devices but not the internet, however at 2am when the ISP connection failed I had no warnings from the app, no notifications and all of the heating remained stuck on night time low settings.

    My house slowly dropped in temperature and all of the settings I have for the rooms did not trigger when required.

    Each tado device needs to have a backup or memory for the settings, it should not rely on the tado server and internet connection to function, this is not a smart design. Even my £5 WiFi switches have a memory function for timers and light brightness settings.

    This function is critical to the tado product and needs to be added.
  • Sim
    Sim ✭✭

    This is a poor design from Tado and like ahorvath73 I would of never brought Tado if i knew how it worked without the internet. I have had Tado for 3 months and I have had problems 3 times due to either the Tado server or my internet losing connection. Compare this to Hive which I had for 1.5 years and although the app is boring and limited it worked flawlessly regardless of the internet and I can't recall having one issue!

  • This should just be how it works anyway, not a feature!

    Several occasions I've woken up to a boiling house because one of the rad thermostats has lost connection for instance. It should just fall back to the schedule.
  • Basic feature, but still missing.

    According to support, they don't even consider it having appended😬...

    This is really frustrating, being away i.e on vacation for a longer period is going to be nerve-wrecking, one might come home to a freezing house or a boiler wreaking havoc on the radiators having no fall-back system to rely on.

  • Lack of automatic control when no internet connection is a Serious flaw that has resulted in me insisting friends do not install TADO. I am sure the bridge could be updated to hold schedules and allow communication with devices without access to the cloud. This would make TADO a very attractive package.

  • Agree, Schedules could be stored on the Thermostat internal memory and keep working as a normal Thermostat without any dependency on internet when that fails.

  • asheldrake
    edited September 2020

    I'm with you all on this, I had my internet down a few weeks ago (on the day my second daughter was born, at home!) and we didn't have any hot water left in the tank because the system isn't smart enough. This resulted in my wife not being able to have a shower after having the baby, and me getting shouted at because I bought a system that's meant to be simple and smart.

    @Ash87 @Will understand completely how simple this must be to achieve.

    Saying it doesn't have internal memory is highly unlikely, and this bit of code shouldn't be tricky to achieve or consume much capacity. Surely it's as simple as hosting a backup version of the schedule table on the device, and then adding a line of code saying: If cloud table unresponsive for 20s, attempt local table.

    This would be the same process they should/could be using for multiple server locations in the event of AWS being down etc.

    I didn't see any of these 'missing feature' issues in reviews when I bought my tado... maybe we should all go back and write reviews / edit ones we've already written?... Then new users can invest their cash with a different company with an active development team.

    @Germán - Is this on the roadmap?

  • Two solutions.

    1. Upgraded extension kit and smart stat package that use Wifi to connect directly to router or mesh node and act as a hub / range extender for connected devices. With a 4g back up incorporated in the event of a router outage.
    And a stored back up schedule to maintain service during external connection outages. Which could be at tado's end as easily as they could be at home.

    2. A plug in Bridge which incorporates a pass through plug socket.
    Powerline capable using standard systems.
    Range Extender for Wifi networks
    Range Extender for Tado Devices
    Can be set as master or slave in a multi bridge set up.
    And has an external failure fall back schedule to maintain local control in the event of an external comms failure.

    Both could be sold as upgrades.
    Number 2 has meritd as it provides better coversge and could be added to an existing system replacing or augmenting the existing bridge, and providing extra services to the user
    As a poweline range extender for their home wifi.

    A swiss army knife that enhances the Tado offering and adds robust control without damaging the commercial asoect.
  • I see it as a security risk that there is an organisation based in another country holding my personal details (name, address, phone number, email address) who intimately knows whether or not I'm at home and if I'm away just how far away I am and how long it will take me to get home.

    I'm sure you hold my data securely and carefully manage exactly who has access to this information - however, it's still a risk that I'm taking using your system.

    I would like the option of running a local server that does most of what you do centrally. I appreciate it may not be able to do everything a central system does - e.g. no AI/ML across thousands of customers, no geofencing.

    I run a couple of RaspberryPi's permanently and could install a cut-down Tado server on one of these?

  • It is very surprising that the thermostat does not switch on or off whithout internet access.

    I can understand that the weather prediction features do not work, or remote programming and remote control, but basic switching should be possible without internet access, otherwise the device is worse than a dumb thermostat.

    This can lead to a lot of damage in wintertime, with pipes and water conduits freezing and bursting.